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Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

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Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#401

Post by kcplate »

threatofrain wrote: post #73
michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

Punching yourself in the face, or nanny state discussions, is more akin to something like a seat belt law. We have seat belt laws to stop the individual from hurting themselves, not because we're afraid they're going to launch out as a projectile and hurt others. But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. If it were just about hurting yourself, then I'd agree that the discussion should be fra…

You can choose to wear a seatbelt. You can’t un-inject a substance from my body.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#402

Post by landemva »

oliwarner wrote: post #340
justwanttolearn wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because the science is evolving so we shouldn't have to mandate those who already have natural immunity. Will coercing someone who has natural immunity to take a shot or lose their job be truly that much more beneficial to justify? I don't think so and it's ethically wrong.

My antibody test was more painful than the pair of injections. Vaccination doesn't harm people with existing antibodies (they just rebuff it faster) and going through the process serves as a good booster.

What medieval test did you get?

I got the finger prick with a drop of blood. Quick and simple. Biting my tongue is much more painful.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#403

Post by landemva »

ZetaZero wrote: post #395
quotemstr wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe so --- but places like Iceland still have big COVID waves despite very high vaccination rates, so clearly, the vaccine doesn't reduce the risk of infection enough to stop the spread, and that's what matters.

With the delta variant, experts believe we need 90% vaccinations to achieve herd immunity. Iceland is at 72.8%. There is every reason to believe that the vaccine would stop the transmission once enough people had the vaccine.

Does that 90% include cats and deer? Believe what you want, though the fact is the animal virus reservoirs mutate and transmit to humans, so the 'rona will be with us for approximately forever.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#404

Post by kcplate »

angelzen wrote: post #349
voiper1 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is showing per-capita rates by default.. in some of the data... on https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/ to avoid this issue: e.g. hospitalized above age 60 (חולים קשה - התחסנות) 162/100,000 unvaccinated 40/100,000 2 dose (I think) 5/100,000 2 dose + booster If you'd just look at the raw numbers, the vaccine doesn't appear so helpful: 226 unvaccinated, 116 with 2 doses, 55 with 3 doses. Looks like it b…

There is also rate data from UK on covid delta (week 32-35 2021), breakdown by vax status & age, see Figure 2a. Cases under 40 is 1/2 vax/unvax, cases over 40 is actually slightly larger for vax than unvax. I had a sense vaccines are not perfect wrt infection, but didn't expect actual numbers to be that close. Fortunately vaccines are very still very good at preventing severe cases (hospitaliations), see Figure 2d. h…

Preventing severe cases really only benefit the vaccinated and perhaps medical providers. It’s a lousy justification for a mandate that forces someone to do something that cannot be undone.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#405

Post by kcplate »

titzer wrote: post #122
nostromo wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My takeaway is the opposite: I'm pleasantly surprised with how many people are vaccinated, and how quickly. It's hard to get 2/3rds of Americans to agree on just about anything. When you look at the hold-outs, it's largely young people who are at very low risk of serious illness. (85% of 65 and older are vaccinated, but just 57% of people 18-29.) So it makes sense to me that they are more hesitant.

I have extended family--aunts, uncles, cousins--who all decided not to get vaccinated. There are young people who can't be bothered to do a damn thing, but hesitancy among a particular political persuasion is rampant.

It’s not just “that particular political persuasion”. It’s wide spectrum of folks. We love to single out that “political persuasion” but I think you will find that this mandate will frustrate and potentially financially hurt a lot of folks that are not of that “political persuasion”. This will of course make more people of that “political persuasion”.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#406

Post by kcplate »

busymom0 wrote: post #332
michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

List of folks who refuse it: 1. Young, healthy and fit people who don't have any prior medical conditions. I checked the stats in Canada and I have a lot more chances of dying in a car accident than COVID in my age group. 2. Minorities who have had very bad treatment by the medical community in the past. Numerous examples of blacks, Latin Americans, indigenous being used for experiments. 3. Similar to point 2, anyone…

I personally know several POC who chose not to get vaccinated because the CDC suggested at one point that for “social justice” reasons that POC should be vaccinated first.

A rapidly developed vaccine using new experimental tech, with an emergency use approval…and someone in our government suggests that the black folks should line up first. Talk about clueless.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#407

Post by MatteoFrigo »

angelzen wrote: post #349
voiper1 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel is showing per-capita rates by default.. in some of the data... on https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/ to avoid this issue: e.g. hospitalized above age 60 (חולים קשה - התחסנות) 162/100,000 unvaccinated 40/100,000 2 dose (I think) 5/100,000 2 dose + booster If you'd just look at the raw numbers, the vaccine doesn't appear so helpful: 226 unvaccinated, 116 with 2 doses, 55 with 3 doses. Looks like it b…

There is also rate data from UK on covid delta (week 32-35 2021), breakdown by vax status & age, see Figure 2a. Cases under 40 is 1/2 vax/unvax, cases over 40 is actually slightly larger for vax than unvax. I had a sense vaccines are not perfect wrt infection, but didn't expect actual numbers to be that close. Fortunately vaccines are very still very good at preventing severe cases (hospitaliations), see Figure 2d. h…

Great document, thanks for the link.

The document says that >97% of the blood-donor population in the UK has some kind of antibodies, either from natural infection or vaccines. This seems like an astonishingly high number.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#408

Post by busymom0 »

kcplate wrote: post #406
busymom0 wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

List of folks who refuse it: 1. Young, healthy and fit people who don't have any prior medical conditions. I checked the stats in Canada and I have a lot more chances of dying in a car accident than COVID in my age group. 2. Minorities who have had very bad treatment by the medical community in the past. Numerous examples of blacks, Latin Americans, indigenous being used for experiments. 3. Similar to point 2, anyone…

I personally know several POC who chose not to get vaccinated because the CDC suggested at one point that for “social justice” reasons that POC should be vaccinated first. A rapidly developed vaccine using new experimental tech, with an emergency use approval…and someone in our government suggests that the black folks should line up first. Talk about clueless.

Yep. Just a few days ago, even the NYTimes reported that only 27% of the blacks in NYC are vaccinated and the number one reason for hesitancy was lack of trust in the vaccine. Many people even mentioned how they got extra skeptical when they decides to vaccinating blacks first which was a pure optics failure.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#410

Post by sys_64738 »

quotemstr wrote: post #333
sys_64738 wrote: post #141

You just need to raise the bar to see the difference between those who will/won't and where their will to resist expires. For most people it's a pretty low bar and when it comes to paying your mortgage then most folk won't jeopardize their job.

> For most people it's a pretty low bar and when it comes to paying your mortgage then most folk won't jeopardize their job. Maybe so, but when you use naked force to make people do things, you make an enemy for life. Anyone forced to choose between his bodily integrity and feeding his family will never, ever, not a million years, forgive you, even, and he will hate you for the rest of your days.

I don’t think anybody cares whether they don’t forgive whoever. If your ain’t vaccinated then you are a problem that needs to be motivated to do the right thing.
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