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What it's like to be cancelled

noahbradley.com

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Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#401

Post by shadeslayer_ »

Animats wrote: post #143

What he's supposed to have done: “I was terrible to women. I preyed on them. I ceaselessly hit on them. I pressured them into sex. I got too drunk and did all manner of dumb things.” None of which is illegal. It's not even a matter for civil litigation. He was not accused of doing this as a boss in an organization. Or in a workplace context. There were apparently no criminal charges. No EEOC complaints filed.[1] No a…

If pressuring women into sex is not illegal, I really want to know which country you are living in.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#402

Post by [deleted] »

spoonjim wrote: post #367
overgard wrote: post #99

I've fortunately never been cancelled (I don't think I even have enough of a footprint or visibility for that to happen). From everything I've observed, the absolute worst thing you can do is apologize to the people attempting to cancel you. It's just pouring gasoline on the fire. These people will never say "oh, you learned from your mistakes, I guess I'll back off" . Most of them don't really care about the truth,…

Look at Andrew Cuomo. Dozens of women accused of him of lewd behavior and he said "whatever" and the media have moved on.

[deleted]

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#403

Post by lelanthran »

tptacek wrote: post #372
lelanthran wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citing that no one officially lodged a criminal complaint isn't a counterpoint. Most sexual assault isn't pursued. Serial creeps are plying their trade right now. Actually it is a counterpoint. If someone accuses me of a crime, then refuses to pursue any prosecution of that crime, and then expects me to suffer consequences for that crime, that's a gross injustice. That's why we have a justice system.

In fact, it is not the purpose of a justice system to ensure that you retain all your clients when you're accused of misconduct. In our justice system, it's rather the opposite: most of the function of the justice system we have is to ensure that people retain the freedom not to associate with people, with only very narrow exceptions. You can lose jobs, friends, and clients simply for being a jerk. There's nothing il…

> You can lose jobs, friends, and clients simply for being a jerk. There's nothing illegal about being an asshole, but plenty of people refuse to work with assholes.

Sure, but the current cancel culture results in people refusing to associate with the accused out of fear, not because they think he or she is a jerk.

I heartily support freedom of association. I don't support a mob of people, completely unrelated to either the victim or the accused, exacting punishments for any third party who exercises their own freedom of association. Made all the more worse when the mob then moves on in a coordinated fashion to the next "accused".

I cannot see a future where I ever support mobbing and witch-hunts, even if I happen to believe their accusation.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#404

Post by tptacek »

lelanthran wrote: post #403
tptacek wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, it is not the purpose of a justice system to ensure that you retain all your clients when you're accused of misconduct. In our justice system, it's rather the opposite: most of the function of the justice system we have is to ensure that people retain the freedom not to associate with people, with only very narrow exceptions. You can lose jobs, friends, and clients simply for being a jerk. There's nothing il…

> You can lose jobs, friends, and clients simply for being a jerk. There's nothing illegal about being an asshole, but plenty of people refuse to work with assholes. Sure, but the current cancel culture results in people refusing to associate with the accused out of fear , not because they think he or she is a jerk. I heartily support freedom of association. I don't support a mob of people, completely unrelated to ei…

I guess I think you can coherently believe that without somehow implicating the justice system. People have different thresholds for this stuff.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#405

Post by lightgreen »

tw04 wrote: post #247
throwaway111999 wrote: post #225

I'm terrified of interacting with female coworkers. I don't have a "-ist" bone in my body. When I review code, I only see the code and not the person that wrote it. When I pick a team, I look at engineering ability and nothing else. I abhor discriminatory behavior and would be the first to put my career on the line to defend someone getting discriminated against. And of course I keep anything sexual FAR FAR FAAAR out…

Or you know, just don't be a creep and treat women like human beings and you'll be fine? If you're giving negative feedback because they did something wrong/substandard work, you document it and move on. If there are questions later, you refer back. I've literally never had this be a problem. I'm not sure why talking about your personal life would be grounds for issues unless you decided to talk about your bedroom, p…

> don't be a creep and treat women like human beings and you'll be fine?

You may have your best intentions about women and still slip. Like accidentally calling people "guys" which is considered offensive now.

Everyone does tons of "mistakes" like that. Sometimes it is forgiven, sometimes it is now.

Whether it is forgiven or not often depends not on the exact words or tone of your voice, but on the perception of you. If you are handsome, the reaction will be a giggle. If you not so good, exactly the same words can be considered offensive. https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1663485-hello-human-resource...

The problem is that people gets offended too easily nowadays.

And you advice can be translated as "just be successful young and handsome".

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#406

Post by megous »

dfxm12 wrote: post #154

My life ended on June 21, 2020 Who wrote this post then? I know you go on much later to say that not everyone gets a chance to start over again but I have , so do you have some perspective. At a high level, you got fired from your job, lost some friends, got depressed, but found light at the end of the tunnel and are working again, a year later (a year where a lot of people found themselves out of work for many reaso…

I have a feeling that people don't always express their experiences literally. Maybe unless they have some mental problem, where they are unable to see behind literal meanings of words...

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#407

Post by kstrauser »

defaultname wrote: post #397
koheripbal wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citing that no one officially lodged a criminal complaint isn't a counterpoint. Most sexual assault isn't pursued. Your argument here is that he's guilty until proven innocent.

If we're going to use that terminology, note that the common phrase "innocent until proven guilty" applies to the court , and only to the court. That it must treat you as innocent until a guilty judgment is rendered. It isn't some universal right or something, and has zero bearing on this conversation. I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent. But if someone says "he did nothing illegal because he hasn't been charged"…

I definitely agree with you there.

If my child came to me sobbing that someone abused them, I would not wait for a court to decide the "truth" before I started caring for and protecting my child. Whether the person who hurt them was ever convicted wouldn't me material to my opinion on the events.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#408

Post by orwin »

lelanthran wrote: post #324
defaultname wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original complaint claimed that he was a groper. That's sexual harassment. It's illegal. It's incredibly toxic and creepy , and people who do it are out of touch cretins who make everything worse. Citing that no one officially lodged a criminal complaint isn't a counterpoint. Most sexual assault isn't pursued. Serial creeps are plying their trade right now. But yeah, if he's associated with a brand and he's going…

> Citing that no one officially lodged a criminal complaint isn't a counterpoint. Most sexual assault isn't pursued. Serial creeps are plying their trade right now. Actually it is a counterpoint. If someone accuses me of a crime, then refuses to pursue any prosecution of that crime, and then expects me to suffer consequences for that crime, that's a gross injustice. That's why we have a justice system.

Okay, counterpoint. Say you were 50yo a restaurant owner, and launched a party for the arrival of your new cook. At the end of the party, you proposed to the 19yo apprentice to drive her home while she was waiting at the bus stop. As she live outside town and don't really want to wait an hour for the night bus, she accept. In the car, you managed to rape her, then throw her out. Devastated, she go home to her then boyfriend, who drunk, said something like "with how you dress, i wouldn't be surprised". Oh, also, this "boyfriend" work in your friend's restaurant. She managed to get herself up three day later (two and a half), but it is too late to take a sample, and since you threathened her, no bruising was found. Even if a sample was recolted right after the act btw, it would not have been a clear evidence of a rape, as she could have given her consentment (after all, she was in your car).

So you can sleep easily, nothing to fear. Well, until somehow, people keep shouting "rapist" when then pass in front of your restaurant, and tell your client to call the cooking institute and ask them about which restaurant in town their female apprentice to avoid. Oh, and the girl you raped shared her story on facebook with your 18 yo daughter, who is not estranged to you. All that, that's gross injustice, too?

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#409

Post by croes »

noahbradley wrote: post #215
defaultname wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original complaint claimed that he was a groper. That's sexual harassment. It's illegal. It's incredibly toxic and creepy , and people who do it are out of touch cretins who make everything worse. Citing that no one officially lodged a criminal complaint isn't a counterpoint. Most sexual assault isn't pursued. Serial creeps are plying their trade right now. But yeah, if he's associated with a brand and he's going…

I never groped anyone.

That's what a groper would say.

Re: What it's like to be cancelled

#410

Post by pdonis »

aeturnum wrote: post #140
pdonis wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really wish there was a bit more introspection into how you see your past behaviour in the light of being cancelled. I don't get this comment. The author says explicitly that he was an asshole in the past, that he changed who he was, and that he apologized privately to the people he had hurt. What more do you want?

I think this quote from the article is a good example: >I don’t think I can fully describe the heart-wrenching pain of seeing your life & career crumbling around you and feeling utterly powerless to stop it. I thought I was fast approaching my inevitable and permanent end. I don’t cry often, but I cried a lot that night. The author has harsh words for his previous behavior, but the question I have is about the sentim…

> if he had agency in the attacks on him

I think he did in the sense that he could have chosen to respond in different ways. He could have said, for example, something like: "I admit I behaved badly in the past. I have changed who I am so I don't do those things any more, and I have apologized in private to the people I hurt. That's all I'm going to say about it." And then just ignored whatever happened on social media after that.

The question is whether that would have affected, for example, his getting fired and disowned by companies he had worked for. I don't think it would have, because I don't think the companies that fired him were doing it based on any evaluation they did themselves of his behavior; they were doing it based on fear of social media.

> it seems hard to simultaneously put forth that your previous behavior was wrong and should be judged harshly and also that you will not judge others for their previous behavior

I don't think that's what he's saying. The things he was accused of on social media and which caused companies to fire him were not things he had actually done in the past, but accusations about things he had not done in the past. So I don't think he's complaining about being judged on what he actually did. I think he's complaining about being cancelled on the basis of things he had not done, simply because social media never stops at what you actually did, but always goes on to accuse you of things you didn't do, and you have no way of defending yourself. And he's saying he won't judge other people based on things social media says about them because most of the things social media says about anybody aren't true.

(Note that if you disagree about whether, for example, he actually raped someone, naturally you'll disagree about the extent to which the social media cancellation was justified. But the fact is that he says he didn't rape anyone, so what he is saying is not what you are describing. He's not saying that rape isn't bad or that he wouldn't judge someone harshly who had raped someone. He's saying he won't judge someone harshly just because social media accuses them of raping someone.)

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