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Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

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Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#401
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa. Who said better? I just said the poverty in the US isn’t unique among developed countries.

You provided the example of the First Nations in Canada, which would be taken by any reasonable person as an implication that the United States is a better country to be impoverished in. When combined with your refutation of the earlier poster's comments regarding the similarity of the poor in the United States to those in the developing world and your statement that the poor in the United States aren't worse off tha…

You certainly inferred a lot of things that I never said.

OP said “the poor is the US are the most destitute of any developed country”. I provided an example of similarly destitute poor in Canada, hence disproving his statement.

That’s all.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#402
post #393
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why it is silly. I believe an opportunity to have children is an opportunity to have a purpose (not the purpose, note). I'm not saying that people who can't support children should have them - I'm saying that the society (i.e. other people) should help individuals to find their purpose. If making money and being rich is it for some, fine, no issue with that.

My purpose in life is fighting for 2nd amendment rights. Should the government pay me to that too?

don't confuse opportunities with money and if you feel people should have help to get the opportunity, isn't that what having a government is for?

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#403
> our research suggests that powerholders overgeneralize their greater sense of choice to others.

This research is about power. The author may be taking great liberty in turning it into a flame-bait article about wealth inequality.

And I’m not certain that the connection between financial wealth and physical power is tautological, despite any observations of that in a particular legal context.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#404
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hardest workers in the building It took me a while to understand that work is not paid based on difficulty, but on labor supply and demand. The reason why many very hard jobs pay so low is because there’s lots of people who will do them. There’s an axiom about smart work > hard work but I think that oversimplifies too much. I did manual labor for a few summers and it didn’t pay very well. I just didn’t understand w…

"The reason why many very hard jobs pay so low is because there’s lots of people who will do them." There's a hell of a lot more to it than that. From hiring bias, to school bias, to class bias, to name bias, to area bias - from sheer propaganda to straight up coercion. From lobbying, to perverse subsidies, to externalization of costs, etc, etc, ad nauseaum. "Understanding how wages work at the macro level gave me so…

Macro factors in all those things you mentioned.

Of course there are micro instances with particulars to a situation, but the main driver for wages is supply and demand.

The reason the janitorial service only gets $12/hour is not a result of all the biases you mentioned, even though it’s hard work- unpleasant, time constrained, shift work hours. The wage is low because many, many people are capable of doing the job.

I’m not sure why you would think America’s wages are unjust. But that can exist at the same time as supply and demand issues. Perhaps it is unjust that people make too little, but the reason isn’t that the universe is an asshole. The reason is that lots of people are capable of doing jobs that are hard, so it’s easy to pay less.

So the injustice is because people need more skills and are only capable of taking jobs that lots of other people can do, and few demand.

But again, wages aren’t set based on difficulty, or value, or the intrinsic need for human dignity of the people performing them. Wages are set by supply and demand.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#405
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just semantics. Yes, wealth tends to remain with the wealthy. That is a consequence of economic processes, and to the extent that it limits what is possible, it would be good to alter those processes. Analyzing society into ‘classes’ of people has nothing to do with it. They aren’t real things. That analysis is a political tool whose value is to divide society and leverage ignorance for political gain. The a…

So economic processes and analysis create the illusion of a wealthy elite who run everything, but there's not really a ruling class... I disagree, and the fact that "wealth tends to remain with the wealthy" combined with some nepotism doesn't just create the illusion, it creates a system functionally the same. Your implication of some nefarious plot to convince the ignorant that there is a ruling class sounds a bit d…

> So economic processes and analysis create the illusion of a wealthy elite who run everything, but there's not really a ruling class...

Right. Steve Jobs, Tim Cook, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, they are not rich and powerful because they were anointed by an elite who runs everything.

Nepotism is irrelevant and nothing to do with wealth. It is ubiquitous.

You can apply a label to them post hoc as a ‘ruling class’, but that is like I suggest, like thinking of cloud formations as animals. You are bringing a pre-conceived image and seeing it where you look.

> I disagree, and the fact that "wealth tends to remain with the wealthy" combined with some nepotism doesn't just create the illusion, it creates a system functionally the same.

This is just affirming the consequent. There is no class system established. The fact that wealth pools in a few places is a problem in itself. You can easily see the economic mechanisms which cause it.

There is literally no need to appeal to a labeling of different kinds of people. The groups don’t exist. The processes do.

> Your implication of some nefarious plot

You are imagining that. Why do you think I’m implying something nefarious?

> to convince the ignorant

By definition, if someone is convinced of the existence of something that doesn’t exist, they must be ignorant.

> that there is a ruling class

Weasel words. There are rulers, and there are wealthy people, but they are not there because of a ‘class system’. Thinking about it this way perpetuates ignorance. They are there for reasons. Not necessarily good ones.

Those are what matters, not a conspiracy theory about elites and ruling classes.

Conspiracy theories are what we turn to when we want to stop thinking and just have a bad guy to blame, or when we want to manipulate others into doing so.

To suggest that class analysis is not used as a political tool, is clearly absurd.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people pretend the Midwest doesn't exist. Plenty of jobs and cheap housing. You don't get FAANG salaries, but if you're setting FAANG to be the standard, you are on of the "rich people who have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor". Before the pandemic, someone on a typical engineer salary in the Midwest would afford a 2000 sqft home with a nonworking spouse and a few kids. 2000 sq ft is not big over…

For the record there are FAANGs paying their salaries in the Midwest. I could transfer to Detroit or Madison fairly easily.

Those would still be the exception rather than the rule. Not the ‘standard.’

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#407
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So economic processes and analysis create the illusion of a wealthy elite who run everything, but there's not really a ruling class... I disagree, and the fact that "wealth tends to remain with the wealthy" combined with some nepotism doesn't just create the illusion, it creates a system functionally the same. Your implication of some nefarious plot to convince the ignorant that there is a ruling class sounds a bit d…

> So economic processes and analysis create the illusion of a wealthy elite who run everything, but there's not really a ruling class... Right. Steve Jobs, Tim Cook, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, they are not rich and powerful because they were anointed by an elite who runs everything. Nepotism is irrelevant and nothing to do with wealth. It is ubiquitous. You can apply a label to them post hoc as a ‘ruling class’, bu…

> Why do you think I’m implying something nefarious?

Maybe because you literally just said:

> a political tool whose value is to divide society and leverage ignorance for political gain

No offense, but I can't take your arguments seriously.

I'm not saying the elite are there because our politics are some kind of official "class system", I'm saying the elite have become entrenched, which functionally creates a separate class.

> Conspiracy theories are what we turn to when we want to stop thinking and just have a bad guy to blame, or when we want to manipulate others into doing so.

Says the person who just accused me of spreading a nefarious conspiracy "to divide society and leverage ignorance for political gain"... This is getting silly!

What I'm saying isn't a conspiracy, it's not even hidden...

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#408
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So economic processes and analysis create the illusion of a wealthy elite who run everything, but there's not really a ruling class... Right. Steve Jobs, Tim Cook, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, they are not rich and powerful because they were anointed by an elite who runs everything. Nepotism is irrelevant and nothing to do with wealth. It is ubiquitous. You can apply a label to them post hoc as a ‘ruling class’, bu…

> Why do you think I’m implying something nefarious? Maybe because you literally just said: > a political tool whose value is to divide society and leverage ignorance for political gain No offense, but I can't take your arguments seriously. I'm not saying the elite are there because our politics are some kind of official "class system", I'm saying the elite have become entrenched, which functionally creates a separat…

> a political tool whose value is to divide society and leverage ignorance for political gain

Where is there mention of a conspiracy or anything nefarious?

Examples abound of class ideology being used in exactly this way. It’s not some kind of secret.

> No offense,

It’s generally not a good sign of honesty when people say this.

> but I can't take your arguments seriously.

Obviously not true, since you then go on to do so.

>> I'm not saying the elite are there because our politics are some kind of official "class system",

>I'm saying the elite have become entrenched, which functionally creates a separate class.

Obviously not true. The examples I gave are not there because of some kind of ‘entrenchment’. You simply chose to ignore that.

Yes, statistical social mobility is low and varies depending on conditions. Yes, it seems like low social mobility limits what’s possible. That doesn’t magic ‘classes’ into reality.

>> Conspiracy theories are what we turn to when we want to stop thinking and just have a bad guy to blame, or when we want to manipulate others into doing so.

> Says the person who just accused me of spreading a nefarious conspiracy "to divide society and leverage ignorance for political gain"...

Continuing to repeat this doesn’t make it true. See above. That’s exactly how class ideology has been used historically.

>> This is getting silly!

>What I'm saying isn't a conspiracy, it's not even hidden...

It’s a conspiracy if you blame a small group of people for the outcome, as opposed to understanding the processes.

Obviously it’s not hidden. You can’t hide what doesn’t exist.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article doesn't say they have no choices it says they have less/limited choices. And this is simply a common sense fact. The more resources/power you have the more options you have. I can buy so many more things and combinations of things with $100 vs $1, for example.

> The article doesn't say they have no choices it says they have less/limited choices. When you are poor, sometimes all of the choices available to you are bad ones. And when you are constrained to making an endless series of 'least bad' choices, is it any wonder that at some point you inevitably go for some instant gratification to ameliorate your intolerable circumstance, at least for a while?

School is being paid for, even in the US, I think? Just keep your head down, do your homework, don't do drugs, don't get in trouble, and your odds for escaping poverty are probably quite good.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#410
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The debt in the current world economy is unheard of, and the cost of housing is getting out of reach of first home buyers. Something has to give at some point. If interest rates rise in the next 10 years then I suspect many will be left with mortgage payments they can't afford.

> If interest rates rise in the next 10 years then I suspect many will be left with mortgage payments they can't afford. Sure, but there will always be a bigger (Chinese) fish to eat you(r investment). If there is one thing this world does not lack, it's a bunch of individuals and investment funds looking to make money on rent.

Surely though, it isn't a given rents will stay high in places where they're currently high? No one's trying to make money on rent in, say, Detroit.
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