EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd • Hacker News Board

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#401

Post by Lev1a » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

saruken wrote: post #371

wayne-li2 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cynic in me believes without any disincentive to cheating, “few cheaters” become “almost all participants”. I was a TA in a prominent CS university. We used software that would compare everyone’s submissions to see if things were copied. The penalty for getting caught was high, and we made it clear to everyone that this software was, while not perfect, capable of detecting simple tricks (like copying code and ren…

But isn't "cheating" the norm in real-world jobs too? It's rare that I or any of the developers I work with complete a task without looking something up or asking a question of someone more knowledgeable. Seems to me the problem is how the assignments are posed – If the goal is to create a program that does X, and I can do that by copy/pasting or tweaking something from StackOverflow, have I not completed the goal? B…

> But isn't "cheating" the norm in real-world jobs too? It's rare that I or any of the developers I work with complete a task without looking something up or asking a question of someone more knowledgeable.

One part of one my math exams in a previous university was (I feel like) modeled around this idea, where you were allowed to use a non-programmable (graphical) calculator and to bring basically any written material in to help yourself solve that part of the exam. Of course there were some restrictions: none of the solutions to the various homework assignments etc. That part alone for the ~2 hours of the whole exam would've been nice if there hadn't been the other half: no calculator, no helping materials apart from those maybe provided on the exam sheet. This part (of course) was the one containing the questions about specific definitions, one or more things to write a proof on and calculating things like double and/or triple integrals, deriving complicated expressions.

In other courses (Databases 1 and 2, Web Dev) at my 2nd/current uni with some specific professors there was a clause that you could bring with you help in the form of: "DIN A4 sheet paper, hand-writing on one side, non-copied" and the professor or the TA if one was present would pass through the rows during the exam to check the student ID, have the student sign a presence sheet and whether the help sheet was compliant (also if maybe there were some answers to the exam), signed that help sheet and would collect that together with the exam upon completion/timeout.

Although our course was only ~80-90 people at the start of my first and ~30 at the start of my current uni, so we had to be thrown together with some other disciplines/outlines ("Studiengänge" in Germany) for exams of the same courses to have an exam that made sense for everyone.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#402

Post by necovek » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #194

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a correlation between having a degree and competence? Because my experience is that there very much isn't. I would go so far as to say that the information age has made educational material so widely and easily available that the only value universities provide is signaling and wealth/class filtering.

Could engineers that cheated their way through college have developed microprocessors? Built bridges and skyscrapers? Achieved space travel? Perhaps there is value in knowing someone has been able to work in a team setting and complete given tasks.

They certainly could. For instance, many of the still surviving bridges in Europe were built way before university degrees in architecture. I'll consider them cheaters because they didn't even attend a University! ;)

But there is another way to look at it: can all non-cheating students build bridges, design microprocessors or design rockets? I can give you an affirmative no.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#403

Post by chmaynard » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

varenc wrote: post #399

jimmySixDOF wrote: post #119

They should have just ignored this guy and gone on with life. Now the they got the EFF to deal with and it serves them right. There is another HN thread on this and a lot of people in it are more upset about the line of work Proctorio is in and how they do it than the fact they sued this minor irritating student. My opinion is there is simply no easy pain free way to do fraud auditing and that's that. I just recently…

The HN post you mentioned now seems to be merged with this one. Very confusingly. This puts yours and other comments way out of context. Why do the mods/dang do this? Is it just to avoid multiple stories on the same topic on the home page? There’s got to be a better solution than this. At least providing some sort of log of changes would be helpful.

I've been encouraging HN to merge comments on duplicate posts for a long time. If that's what happened here, I applaud it.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#404

Post by MereInterest » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:42 PM UTC

gspr wrote: post #396

ska wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why PhD's typically have comprehensive exams. It varies (a lot!) by university and even department, but panel led oral exams are pretty common. At some places they are even open to the public (no pressure). These are distinct from a thesis defence, which happens at the end of your degree; they are likely to happen about a year in and are meant to ensure you have a solid background. Overall I think an oral exa…

> This is why PhD's typically have comprehensive exams. America is leaking again.

The US frequently merges the masters and PhD programs into a single 4-7 year program, rather than a 2-year masters followed by 2-5 year PhD program. The comprehensive exams for PhDs are typically at the end of the first two years, and cover material similar to that of a masters.

The two are pretty much equivalent, but with different names.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#405

Post by necovek » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

revicon wrote: post #210

necovek wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which does not make tracking everyone a solution to the problem of cheating in exams. Higher level education is largely voluntary, and it's up to the person taking it up to decide what they gain from it. If they are only in it for a diploma, they'd get there one way or another. To me, focusing on finding "cheaters" makes education a competition. I never felt cheaters got anything over me in my studies, and I never fe…

Higher level education is largely voluntary, and it's up to the person taking it up to decide what they gain from it. If they are only in it for a diploma, they'd get there one way or another. Employers definitely use grades as a mechanism to determine who gets an internship or a full time position upon graduation, especially in the legal industry. The idea that cheaters aren't a big deal breaks down once grades have…

I've never once been asked about my grades, nor asked to provide proof of my graduation in getting a software engineering job.

Then again, I have a hard time envisioning what would someone cheat about in a legal exam, other than not memorizing the things, but that's to me just a signal that the content is badly presented (instead, put students in a pretend courtroom in a case that covers the study material, and they'll have to learn it, and learn to apply it).

But even if we accept it as so, it is not an argument to be so vigilant in catching cheaters majoring in other subjects.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#406

Post by soperj » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

smiths1999 wrote: post #287

soperj wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is silly. Make the exams open book and then the only thing you really need to worry about is the correct student taking the exam. If you're testing based on memorization of things in this day in age, then the course is useless.

I teach at the university level and this is what I have done with my exams. Everything is open book and in my experience there is no difference in the average exam score between open book online and closed (or open) book in person. It is also way easier for me to not have to worry about who is cheating and where everyone is looking (I also don't like the idea of forcing students to turn on their webcams).

Thank you! I'm sure it takes more work to make an open book exam, but it's definitely to the benefit of your students.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#407

Post by necovek » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

derivagral wrote: post #141

mkl wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in my experience. I don't think there are enough cheaters to shift the curve (the noise from year to year is much more significant), and despite what you'd expect, the people hired to do others' assessments aren't necessarily very good at it!

A top 10 MBA program my partner went through had several people cheating in the program. I'll give you some anecdotal notes. Some cheaters get discovered and "outed" (esp those the group didn't like) when they brag during parties, some never gave up enough evidence to make an accusation official, others would talk about hiring CPAs for accounting exams/projects. Many in the class were concerned on whether normal stud…

What kind of an MBA program is it where students worry if normal study groups are ok?

It sounds like the definition of cheating was very broad there.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#408

Post by fastball » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

moron4hire wrote: post #341

fastball wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that cheating (if allowed) does not end up being a few people here and there.

Even if I were to believe you, so what? So a person gets a degree they don't deserve. Now they have all this student loan debt they can't pay off because they can't get and keep a job in their field because they didn't actually study. Or they do get a job and are able to keep it down, in which case, so what if they cheated? They're clearly capable. Let them keep doing the job. My solution: get rid of degrees complete…

I don't disagree with you, but our current system that we have in reality does not handle things well if you just allow rampant cheating.

Restructuring is a good idea but you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater in the meantime.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#409

Post by throw14082020 » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

fxtentacle wrote: post #5

In case you don't know who Proctorio is: (like me) Apparently it's a supervision software that students are forced to install on their private computer and (as expected) it'll do its worst to invade your privacy and flag "suspicious" things, based on which the university might punish you. "Suspicious" here means wearing glasses [3] or looking around in the room or blinking too much [4] or having eye and/or skin color…

> In case you don't know who Proctorio is:

Procto-: Anus; (more frequently) rectum;

-torio: radioactive chemical element (in spanish)

Therefore, it is a radioactive anus?

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#410

Post by ticviking » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

dariosalvi78 wrote: post #317

leetcrew wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cheating was absolutely rampant when I was in college getting my CS degree. and that was with tests taken in person with the professor in the room! I'm sure students are even more brazen when all assignments are done at home. I think at the very least, all exams ought to be designed as "open book" with a time limit. that at least eliminates the issue of students using unauthorized resources. I'm not sure what can be…

Is this the responsibility of teaching staff? They're not the police. in the end it's students responsibility to study, exams are just a way to make them understand that should. If they cheat they lose an opportunity to learn. They'll pay the consequences later, at work.

Their employer will pay the consequence later.

The university will pay repetitional consequences for claiming that the student learned particular things which they clearly didn't.