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OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

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Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#401

Post by bitonp »

015a wrote: post #43
TechBro8615 wrote: post #9

It's hard for me to know whether to feel bad for ES in this case. Did they bring it on themselves? Is Amazon too big and a bully? From my perspective, Amazon has made most of its profit price gouging consumers on bandwidth after vendor locking them into their ecosystem, where they bootstrap new services by wrapping open source software with some provisioning scripts, management dashboards and cookie-cutter API / cons…

One thing which surprised me: Elastic has a market capitalization of ~$11B. I think that changes some of the more floaty ethical concerns. This is not a David vs Goliath situation. This is Goliath vs Super-Goliath. At this point, I'm much less interested in the drama of which mega-corp is screwing over the other. I'm more interested in: how does it affect me? When the titans are done trampling over the rest of us, wh…

Quick point,.., as yours is valid... these days $11Bn market cap doe not represent cash in bank for development and R&D. It just reflects what the market think its worth. R&D , of which there has been a lot, and it continues, is hugely expensive.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#402

Post by shankspeaks »

bgorman wrote: post #108
shankspeaks wrote: post #96

Imagine if they went after Mongo next? Atlas is a virtual monopoly for Mongo solely due to SSPL, and it has created a ridiculously overpriced ecosystem for hosted and managed services, and tooling around it. Parking the technical merits to one side, considering the sheer number of devs and early-stage products that are built on Mongo, I'd love for someone to go after them next.

This already exists https://aws.amazon.com/documentdb/

True, but it's not quite the same as what they've done with OpenSearch/Elastic. Also, from what I've read, despite claims, the compatibility isn't complete, esp with stuff like aggregations.

There are a few use-cases where you'd want the ability to have a managed/hosted vanilla Mongo setup vs an emulated experience.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#403

Post by shawnz »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #387
shawnz wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the modules replace modules which Elastic provides, but not in the free distribution. For example, alerting, SAML auth/SSO, field and document filtering by user/role, etc. However note that the most substantial module, the authentication module, is actually a fork of another product called Search Guard. The differentiating factor in my case is simply the price. I think Elastic's X-pack modules actually provid…

Most of x pack does not cost anything.

The features I described are not free

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#404

Post by therealkay »

throwdbaaway wrote: post #330
amzn-throw wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they can invest more resources into developing it than the original team ever could. I know this is a popular narrative, but as someone who works on AWS, I think you would be shocked by how small the individual dev teams are that build and maintain the services that everyone uses. I'm not going to downplay the network effects involved. Of course AWS has a tremendous advantage in being able to standardize the custom…

I was nodding along until this: > and THEN we think about how do we make money from it Do you really need to think? Looking at the on-demand pricing in US East, a m5.4xlarge.elasticsearch instance costs $1.133 an hour, while a m5.4xlarge instance costs $0.768 an hour. That's 47.53% of extra money. And like you said, it only requires a small team to build and maintain the service. It is no coincidence that all cloud p…

What people often forget is that cross-AZ traffic is included in those .elasticsearch instance prices. In a 3-AZ deployment and given the frequent rebalancing/replication traffic that is a significant line item if you run it yourself. I'm not arguing it's not expensive, but when you look at the TCO it's less obscene than if you just look at EC2 pricing alone.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#406

Post by knodi »

busterarm wrote: post #10
TechBro8615 wrote: post #9

It's hard for me to know whether to feel bad for ES in this case. Did they bring it on themselves? Is Amazon too big and a bully? From my perspective, Amazon has made most of its profit price gouging consumers on bandwidth after vendor locking them into their ecosystem, where they bootstrap new services by wrapping open source software with some provisioning scripts, management dashboards and cookie-cutter API / cons…

As a longtime ElasticSearch cluster admin/developer and Elastic Cloud customer, I don't feel bad for Elastic in the slightest and I'm psyched about this fork. The way they operate their cloud service leaves a lot to be desired and encourages maximum spend if you end up wanting to use it for anything demanding in production.

This! The company I work for spending over $750,000 with Elastic Cloud every year and the quality of service we get from them leave a lot of be desired. I don't feel bad for Elasticsearch corp, they have done this to them selfs.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#407

Post by tmd83 »

nzadrozny wrote: post #318
bogomipz wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really a shame to hear. There was once a an Elastic SaaS company from Norway called found.io that were pretty sharp and customer-centric. They were acquired be Elastic pretty early on[1]. I believe Elastic Cloud was built from this. I guess found.io's culture of delivering a good product didn't survive? https://www.elastic.co/about/press/elastic-acquires-elastics...

Perhaps telling that none of the Found team are still at Elastic, from what I can tell on LinkedIn. I pay attention to that kind of stuff because (full disclosure) I operate the _other_ small customer-focused managed Elasticsearch company (bonsai.io) that _didn't_ get acquired by Elastic back in 2015.

FYI your pricing has this 'HIPAA Complicance'.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#408

Post by virgilp »

mikepurvis wrote: post #208
judge2020 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SSPL directly prohibits offering the software as a service without releasing the source code of your entire operation regardless of if you change it or not: > If you make the functionality of the Program or a modified version available to third parties as a service, you must make the Service Source Code available via network download to everyone at no charge... > “Service Source Code” means the Corresponding Sour…

Doesn't a lot of that hinge on what the "service" is? Like, if I run some generic knowledgebase website and use my own ES installation to provide user-facing search, does Elastic want to see my Ansible scripts? Or just the ones related to the search function? If this interpretation holds, I feel like it could be a pretty big problem for companies like GitLab, who not only have deep integration with ElasticSearch, but…

> I run some generic knowledgebase website and use my own ES installation to provide user-facing search, does Elastic want to see my Ansible scripts?

According to Elastic, "it depends" - if you can just search by entering a term in the searchbox, you're probably fine; If you allow users to use Elastic's query language, you're very likely in violation. If you let your customers define Kibana dashboards, you're definitely in violation.

It's worth noting that you can do a custom deal with Elastic, as long as you pay whatever they ask & accept their terms (or renegotiate them, which is a fairly painful process) - so maybe GitLab did just that.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#409

Post by jrochkind1 »

pas wrote: post #338
jrochkind1 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very good point. Could Elastic's business model survive if lucene adopted the SSPL license that Elastic has, saying it's the "spirit" of open source? That is an interesting question.

The problem is, that AWS is not really sharing the internals of their fork. Big corps always say that there's no point in open sourcing their fork, because it depends so much on internal systems. Which might be true, but in case of AWS and infrastructure the possibility of an AWS competitor similarly implementing those internal services would probably help the market... MySQL for example took a proprietary API (the m…

The announcement says "All of the software in the OpenSearch project is released under the Apache License, Version 2.0 (ALv2)."

You are suggesting this is not correct?

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#410

Post by waisbrot »

zokier wrote: post #399
catern wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The server side license stuff doesn't prevent shared hosting providers from using software. It just requires hosting providers to open source their infrastructure. I think the internet would be even better today, if shared hosting providers had been sharing infrastructure technology since 25 years ago.

I don't think sspl is realistic to be able to comply with. This clause is ridiculously wide: > Corresponding Source for all programs that you use to make the Program or modified version available as a service All programs you use Every single one of them. There is literally no limit on what sources you would need to publish. You don't need to think very long to realize how impossible that is.

I mean... there's very obviously a limit, right? You don't use an infinite number of programs. And it's not "all programs you use", it's "all programs that you use to make the Program ... available as a service". You don't need to provide the code for Microsoft Solitare, but you do need to provide the code for Apache httpd and your Linux distro. Which is pretty easy to do!
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