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Signal adds a payments feature with a privacy-focused cryptocurrency

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Re: Signal adds a payments feature with a privacy-focused cryptocurrency

#401
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal may not own any MobileCoins, but the CEO of MobileCoin said: > MobileCoin has not yet paid Signal anything for integrating MobileCoin. We intend to donate a great deal of money to Signal over the coming years.

In my view there are worse ways to make money from a chat app. Like selling all your users data. Ir worse yet just selling out to FB. At least a crypto scheme can maybe be the cash cow that helps them keep true to the privacy aspect....

I'm really tired of every single company going through some abusive scam or data harvesting scheme to avoid simply charging me money.

Re: Signal adds a payments feature with a privacy-focused cryptocurrency

#402
Is this encouraging governments to insist on access to Signal, adding risk to their core product? Assuming govt haven't already, or that number is limited, adding hidden transactions seems a great was for increased government attention.

Side point, I think one of the greatest and less discussed risks of crypto is government. Its hard to see them allowing loss of currency control. Currency is so economically important for control & profitable e.g. There much talk the support on the attacks on Libya/Gadhafi was in part due to his desire for an independent currency. So unless crypto spreads so widely pre-regulation its politically unviable to move against, I wonder if we will see governments step in against crypto, at least as a day-to-day transaction option at some point.

Re: Signal adds a payments feature with a privacy-focused cryptocurrency

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No “pre-mine” doesn't mean fairly distributed. Bitcoin is a multi-level marketing pyramid scheme as well. Early adopters mine or buy large proportions at negligible prices while late adopters mine or buy negligible proportions at large prices.

By this definition, every company stock is a multi-level marketing pyramid scheme. In fact, company stock is WAY worse, because the majority of people are legally prohibited from investing in private companies unless they're an accredited investor (already rich). So, only rich people (other than founders and early employees) are allowed to buy in at super low prices before handing off the bag to the public.

Also, it would include fiat currency as a scheme as those who print it do so at negligible prices.

Re: Signal adds a payments feature with a privacy-focused cryptocurrency

#404
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal may not own any MobileCoins, but the CEO of MobileCoin said: > MobileCoin has not yet paid Signal anything for integrating MobileCoin. We intend to donate a great deal of money to Signal over the coming years.

Yes, I've read that. I find it a stretch to draw that conclusion though, as if it's some back door deal for funding. For all the criticisms of cryptocurrency (and I have many...), I don't particularly see anything on MobileCoin's work that indicates the usual shady cryptocurrency stuff. I'm not sure it belongs in Signal, but I do think this stuff can be evaluated without people starting conspiracy theories.

It's literally a quid pro quo? What conspiracy theory do you need here?

Re: Signal adds a payments feature with a privacy-focused cryptocurrency

#405
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The founding organization owns 85% of the total market cap of a coin? That should be raising red flags for everyone involved. There is no valid reason for the vast majority of what is supposedly a currency to be owned by the company that created it. Imagine if PayPal launched but required everyone to transact in fractional shares of PayPal to get anything done. Oh and by the way, those shares are majority owned by th…

Of course, it's totally centralized. The 'cryptocurrency' marketing just exists as a regulatory dodge. So far this scheme has worked out fine for the original creators of Ripple-- who've extracted hundreds of million selling their massive premine to an ignorant public, then abandoned the original and did it again. What we're seeing from signal now is just a third generation of the same scheme, preempting the ripple f…

At least it's better than Bitcoin, since in this case it's well known who the whales are.

If one wishes to subject their wealth to the whims of a massively centralized cartel of "rationally self interested" HOLDers, maybe it's better to deal with the devil(s) one knows.

Re: Signal adds a payments feature with a privacy-focused cryptocurrency

#406
post #2

Hi! I'm the CEO of MobileCoin. If anyone has any questions please feel free to ask here. We've been working on this project for four years and it has been a labor of love. There's a lot of new technology here. We exist in a highly regulated space so it's possible some questions will require reaching out to lawyers to make sure we answer them in a way that's compliant so please don't feel offended if a response takes…

Hi Josh! Why does nothing, in plain English, explain why MobileCoin should be used over another decentralized digital currency that exists? For example, if I look at your GitHub [0], the first FAQ item is about Intel SGX, and the overview is just...a blockchain overview.

Why does it make sense to integrate MobileCoin into anything? Why not use Monero or zCash? Sure, you can definitely explain this to me, but nothing explains that to general people on your GitHub page. Same thing on your foundation page, which simply has logos and "Private Payments for everyone" [1].

I've spent a lot of time working on blockchain and perceptually, it feels like you're trying to sell snake oil here. For example, the mechanics paper [2] starts with "Cryptography. It may seem like only mathematicians and computer scientists have access to this obscure, esoteric, powerful, elegant topic." Cryptography is a tool. What's obscure about it? People are using it right this second. Why is it esoteric?

The paper then continues with a brief overview of 'blockchains' (why the scare quotes?). In the same paragraph, it states that the purpose of blockchains is that "no piece of money can be duplicated or created at will" but this is only one of many points of the entire point of a blockchain. Why does it not explore other facets of blockchains if the goal is to be introductory?

Then, in the fifth paragraph, the paper remembers that people may not be reading this for the first time with no experience, and suddenly jumps up to 11, with this paragraph. Note, this paragraph is one single 91-word jargon-filled sentence:

> MobileCoin is a standard one-dimensional directed acyclic graph (DAG) cryptocurrency blockchain, where blocks are consensuated with an implementation of the Stellar Consensus Protocol, transactions are validated in SGX secure enclaves and are based on elliptic curve cryptography using the Ristretto abstraction on curve E25519, transaction inputs are shown to exist in the blockchain with Merkle proofs of membership and are signed with Schnorr-style multilayered linkable spontaneous anonymous group signatures (MLSAG), and output amounts (communicated to recipients via ECDH) are concealed with Pedersen commitments and proven in a legitimate range with Bulletproofs.

While I want to assume good faith here, I find that the blockchain community often has a history of attempting to "smooth over problems" with lots of jargon and hoping for the best. This sentence, when run through Hemingway [3], gives it a post-graduate reading level. But that's not anything about the cryptography: the paragraph/sentence is simply unreadable to most people. It serves no purpose in the middle of this section.

While I'm sure you'll mention that this is a preview document, you're pointing people to it as the primary resource for people to learn "how the whole thing fits together."

Other warning signs that make me wary are everywhere.

The foundation about page has the Intel, Azure, and IBM logos under a "powered by" footer [4]. The meaning is ambiguous, and the intent is clear: you want to use these big tech company logos, because they're recognized. Yet, this is the exact same thing companies do when they're sponsored by other companies. To the untrained eye, these are indistinguishable things. Is MobileCoin sponsored by Intel, IBM, or Azure? If not, you should remove the logos. It feels like a "trust play." You're not linking to any sites or providing any information as to your relationships with these companies, but it seems like you just have cloud services with Azure and IBM, and use Intel SGX.

There's a typo on the "Foundation Trusted Nodes" page (two words slammed together): "MobileCoin Consensus is built on trust relationships between individuals and organizations who are running MobileCoin Consensus Validator Nodes.Determining" [5].

So, I suppose, if I had a question, it's: why, in all of this documentation and all of the websites that you've linked to, is there not a single "you should use MobileCoin over Monero and zCash because of ..." comparison? Why does it seem more like it's interested in propping itself up and being trustworthy, rather than conveying details about how it's superior to its competition for mobile payments?

[0]: https://github.com/mobilecoinfoundation/mobilecoin

[1]: https://www.mobilecoin.foundation/ & https://archive.is/ktf3o

[2]: https://github.com/UkoeHB/Mechanics-of-MobileCoin/blob/maste... (archive: https://files.catbox.moe/1wal8z.pdf)

[3]: https://hemingwayapp.com/

[4]: https://www.mobilecoin.foundation/about & https://archive.is/JNDbG

[5]: https://www.mobilecoin.foundation/foundation-trusted-nodes & https://archive.is/Pr868

Re: Signal adds a payments feature with a privacy-focused cryptocurrency

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stock represents actual ownership of a scarce resource (a company). Is there a limit to how many shares a company can issue? No, a board can technically issue shares unto infinity. There is no guarantee of scarcity, no guarantee they will not raise more money. That company would have value whether or not it was explicitly sold as a stock. The value doesn’t come from the stock. So when a company has no profit but a hi…

> Is there a limit to how many shares a company can issue? No, a board can technically issue shares unto infinity. There is no guarantee of scarcity, no guarantee they will not raise more money. The scarce asset is the company , not the shares. Yes, they can issue more shares, but those shares still represent the same company plus the new investment money raised by raising the shares. They're not creating more compan…

> EDIT: To clarify some misconceptions in the comments below: When a company sells more shares into the market they are not simply diluting away existing shareholders.

HAHHAHHAHHHAHAAAA come on man.

Re: Signal adds a payments feature with a privacy-focused cryptocurrency

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I've read that. I find it a stretch to draw that conclusion though, as if it's some back door deal for funding. For all the criticisms of cryptocurrency (and I have many...), I don't particularly see anything on MobileCoin's work that indicates the usual shady cryptocurrency stuff. I'm not sure it belongs in Signal, but I do think this stuff can be evaluated without people starting conspiracy theories.

It's literally a quid pro quo? What conspiracy theory do you need here?

I don't see how it's a quid pro quo for someone like Moxie, with his background, to advise a project for years and then work with them to integrate it given the alignment with regards to privacy initiatives.

I find it conspiracy-theory in nature to assume otherwise; I think it could've been handled better from a server source code side but I don't really see why this has to be an assumed bad faith thing.

Re: Signal adds a payments feature with a privacy-focused cryptocurrency

#409
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of anti-feature is not what I signed up for. I just wanted a secure messenger normal users could understand! It seems like a simple enough problem that Signal solved well (apart from the phone number requirement). Sadly, now it feels like Signal was just a long game trojan for Marlinspike to onboard users to a cryptocurrency pyramid scheme. This has nothing to do with its core functionality and it makes me…

How does the ability to transfer "points" from one number to another, remove from the messaging features? Is it really that hard to imagine unobtrusive UI that makes this as optional as sending GIFs, stickers or location data? Or did the later features already kill Signal for you?

Signal's UX still needs work and a lot of features just don't work very well (e.g. the desktop sync). That's fine in and of itself - the team is small and they're funded by donations - but if they're spending time on payments, that raises concerns for me about the priorities of the project and how the funding is being spent.

Re: Signal adds a payments feature with a privacy-focused cryptocurrency

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Value is lost to existing shareholders who have the value of their shares diluted. Everything you're saying may seem logical, but economics is often illogical and any 1:1 $:stock sales still tank the share price.

> Value is lost to existing shareholders who have the value of their shares diluted. You're confusing percentage dilution with absolute diluation. The shares represent the value of the company. The value of the company has increased by the amount of money raised. Each share represents a lower percentage of the company, but this is offset by the fact that the value of the company has increased by the amount of money r…

I don't really care about how much of the balance sheet I could lay claim to during a liquidation. That's going to be pennies on the dollar, or nothing.

I care how much of future profits will be returned to be, which does depends on the percentage I end up owning. A round needs to enable a bigger gain than the fraction it dilutes everyone.

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