Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up • Hacker News Board

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#401

Post by mensetmanusman » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

The solution to this is simple:

Practice your communication skills. If you can’t think of a way to phrase advice that might be offensive, you are failing in intermediate communication skills.

If you think it might be offensive, ask a close female in your life, your sister, your mother, grandma, etc.

It’s in everyone’s best interest to treat others with love and respect.

For extra safety, if you really think there is a risk, actually record the audio encounter for back up.

If you actually go through these steps for building towards good communication, it’s highly unlikely you would ever have to use the recording in defense.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#402

Post by ling3 » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

joschmo wrote: post #384

As an investor, of course I clam up. I spend my days looking at the world in terms of risk-adjusted returns and cost benefit analyses, so why would I take a human capital risk? My entire business is based on my reputation and I've seen what happens to the men who get comments like "not the best with women at conferences" or "don't get him too close to your wife." It's limiting beyond your career. I can count on two h…

There is another side effect to this that I would add as a casual investor. My bar for getting involved in a US startup is much higher than it used to be, because it's hard to make uncomfortable changes that might be construed in the wrong way. I find myself investing more freely in other countries where there is more upside and less risk of a career-destroying media storm. China for example has all kinds of unique risks associated with its government, but these are more predictable. I think this may be the biggest long-term side effect to all of this stuff - the US loses its position as the place to do disruptive business.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#403

Post by akudha » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 9:46 PM UTC

ta-ffsmcu wrote: post #51

I can see this happening with myself (male, for the record). I'm usually someone who gives feedback quite frankly, am more critical of others' (and my own) work than average, etc. Over recent years I've read so much about women being passed over, cut off, terms like "microaggressions", women getting less talking time in meetings, etc., that's it's made me extremely self conscious. It's not even that I'm afraid of get…

I feel the same way. A lot of the emphasis is placed on the words and not enough on the context, intent behind those words (by everyone, not specific to male or female or any other group here). People have learned to keep quiet. And when they do speak, they use highly polished, politically correct language (silly example - first time my manager said he is taking a "bio break", I was confused. Took me a second to understand he is going to the bathroom).

This happens in the media a lot too (left and right). A single sentence (or even part of a sentence) can be plucked out of an interview, shown out of context and boom - the person seems like a monster. Someone might have best intentions, but not be very polished in expressing them. So why risk talking at all, unless we are 100% sure it cannot be misconstrued in any way? It is just easier to keep quiet. Which results in loss of lively, valuable discussions.

Some comedian (forgot who it was) mentioned that they don't like performing in colleges anymore as the audience is too sensitive. That is the situation we are in.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#404

Post by igorkraw » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

jancsika wrote: post #393

igorkraw wrote: post #223

I'm a bit sad about how eager everyone is jumping on the idea that "candid advice" will always be construed as possibly sexist. I'm from Germany and we are famously blunt, so maybe there is a cultural aspect to this, but to me candor != risk of sexism. If your advice is candid, it also shouldn't leave any ambiguity..."I'm unsure about you doing the pitch because the last N times you froze up and you seem nervous agai…

If I'm sexist then I could choose to make such a remark only if it happens to be a female colleague. If male then sleep(). Sexism achieved. If you're not from the U.S. you have to understand the background of mendacity that flows through nearly the entire culture. That's a big part of the backdrop for fairly deep levels of distrust, whether it's of a company, one's colleague, the gov't, etc. For example-- I was watch…

> If I'm sexist then I could choose to make such a remark only if it happens to be a female colleague. If male then sleep(). Sexism achieved.

Well, sure, but then you are displaying a clear and verifyable pattern, and my original point of candor that can't be twisted into sexism remains no? You had to add a separate sexist pattern ("treats men and women differently").

Your point of high level of distrust is appreciated and one of the reasons why I'd never move there (no offense intended, most individual americans I know and read about are lovely people, but this culture of hidden BS is too much for me). But then, this is an issue in general no? Why are people only concerned about women/feminists twisting words against them? Why not christians, or veterans as well? Or men for that point, last I checked the protected group list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group does not specify women, and there are conservative mobs on social media just as much as "woke" ones. So I'm just a bit confused

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#405

Post by kbelder » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

throwitaway12 wrote: post #118

I am so thankful to work in an environment where everyone is just... normal. We don't have to walk on egg shells when speaking. Men and women can still interact like it was before I started reading about such insanity.

What state? I'm assuming not California.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#406

Post by oirjjlksjmfljaj » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

bvaldivielso wrote: post #398

oirjjlksjmfljaj wrote: post #323

There's a rhetorical pattern I see in many articles, this one included, that perpetuates the issue this article is trying to address: men are the problem. Before, it was men saying bad things. Now, it's that men aren't saying things at all. "I’m not going to suggest a solution to the problem of men clamming up." If not, then perhaps that's the wrong problem statement, and solutions will become more readily obvious an…

That's not at all the way I interpret the article. The author empathizes with the male investors, and justifies their behaviour. If anything, she's blaming society, not men.

The author literally calls it "the problem of men clamming up." Empathy or not, they're saying the problem is male behavior. This could be framed as "the problem of taking grievances to the mob" or "the problem of overattributing behavior" or anything that puts responsibility for change on some group other than men, but it does not. Whether they're to blame or not, men are the ones behaving incorrectly.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#407

Post by skjfdoslifjeifj » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 9:50 PM UTC

birken wrote: post #381

skjfdoslifjeifj wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my main concerns is that almost all legitimate discussion is now happening in private invite only communities because people are too risk averse to continue to chat on public sites that will be indexed forever in a culture where they can be cancelled for even a slightly uncouth opinion. Almost all of my consumption and contribution on the Internet is now in private communities that are quite strict about invit…

Wasn't most "legitimate discussion" already happening in private already? This article is pointing out situations where even in private people might not want to give out candid feedback, which seems like a different concern that what you are saying. I'm a pretty active person online and I genuinely do not understand your concern. If you want to say something controversial online, just do so anonymously like you are d…

My apologies, I should have made clear that my post wasn't directed at the article.

> Wasn't most "legitimate discussion" already happening in private already?

Probably, but I think there was still much more interesting discussion going on publicly in years past. It's anecdotal but I've definitely seen a huge spike in how many of my colleagues are retreating entirely to private communities and most of them never make public comments anymore. That's disappointing to me because I think there's a lot of value in having these discussions in the open with respected and accomplished names attached. It also gives a level of perceived accessibility that I think is important.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#408

Post by cynusx » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

If you are a woman you can easily counter this behavior by labelling it and saying that you don't have a porcelain skin. Bonuspoints if you laugh about a guy giving you super bad feedback and how this did not bother you.

Putting people at ease around you (especially customers) is a critical entrepreneurial skill.

You can't blame people for being cautious when a lot of people are buying into victim-narratives and convinced to act against their "oppressors".

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#409

Post by rocqua » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

Thorentis wrote: post #298

DoreenMichele wrote: post #5

I'm really glad to see this here. I don't have a better word readily available than sexism for trying to talk about patterns like this but when I use the word sexism , I think people think I mean "Men are intentionally exclusionary assholes just to be assholes because they simply hate women." and that's never what I'm trying to say. I find my gender is a barrier to getting traction and my experience is that it's due…

What is described in the article isn't sexism - it's fear. Fear of being labeled as a sexist.

Its treating people different based on gender. It depends very much on semantics whether you call that sexism. It is certainly not the form of sexism that people these days are most worried about.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#410

Post by luckylion » Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

scythe wrote: post #315

It's interesting that Twitter doesn't get more attention here as a center of activity. Apparently, taking down Harvey Weinstein means you can do no wrong. The problem with Twitter isn't just that they get people fired because people say mean things on the Internet. The problem is also that they incite and organize illegal activities like targeted harassment, threatening phone calls and vandalism, as well as the quest…

Does that actually happen on Facebook? I've seen it happen on Twitter multiple times, and across countries, but I don't associate Facebook with raids and targeted harassment.

It feels like Twitter's user base is much more radical, and the focus of the product on instant public messaging might add fuel, while Facebook's group system generally limits the spread and seems to be more geared towards asynchronous sharing (+messenger, but that's more of a chat, not public).