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Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

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Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#401

Post by higerordermap »

aqme28 wrote: post #27
908B64B197 wrote: post #2

> I was even madder when I found the data science interns hired in a parallel recruitment process had been submitted to technical challenges. That's the miracle of "affirmative action" or whatever you want to call it. When looking at candidates internally, if a company decides to do affirmative action there are those that you know are there because of their skills (non-diverse individuals) and there are the other one…

> there are those that you know are there because of their skills (non-diverse individuals) and there are the other ones. Wow this is not at all correct based on my experience. It is so common for "non-diverse individuals" to have gotten where they are based on things like network that I really don't think you can tell just by looking at someone. The worst developers I have worked with are often traditional "non-dive…

> The worst developers I have worked with are often traditional "non-diverse" candidates.

That's generally in proportion to the ratios in the workspace itself, nothing surprising statistically.

Now ask yourself who are best developers you have ever worked with. Even that is probably non-diverse ones.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#402

Post by caffeine »

munificent wrote: post #118
rsweeney21 wrote: post #37

I'm a light skinned male. I'm also a Choctaw Native American. In my senior year of college in 2004 I applied to dozens of companies. I never got a single response. I decided to try an experiment - I applied to IBM and, for the first time, I selected "Native American" as my ethnicity. Within 24 hours I got an email inviting me to a special, all expenses paid IBM recruiting event held for Native Americans in Albuquerqu…

All of this sounds horribly cringe-inducing and I don't fault you at all for walking away from IBM. At the same time, I can't help but look at this from an iterated organizational perspective. Let's say you had taken the offer at IBM. Next year, IBM does the recruiting event. But this time they have a Native American employee, you, that they can talk to about how to reach out to that group. So it's a little less awkw…

Why would a Native American feel prospect feel more comfortable talking to a Native American employee? I think that's the cringey stuff parent comment is complaining about.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#403

Post by LunaSea »

alienthrowaway wrote: post #383
mc32 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm sure I had it worse than you, at least you people assume you had electricity growing up. Are there not times that cityfolk don't rib countryfolk about growing up in poorer conditions in almost any country? Not to say it's right. But I also think I'm not mistaken in thinking people back home have misconceptions about people in the US as well. Misconceptions are pretty universal.

> Are there not times that cityfolk don't rib countryfolk about growing up in poorer conditions in almost any country? This is exactly the problem: I did not grow up in the country or in "poorer conditions" like you assumed. > Misconceptions are pretty universal. Tell me about it - I actually believed the US was the greatest country on earth, and that silicon valley is meritocratic.

What OP is getting at is that any European country has people from the majority ethnicity live in the conditions you describe. A lot living in rural places although the experience isn't limited to it.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#404

Post by midasz »

kemiller2002 wrote: post #23
maxehmookau wrote: post #6

Firing someone for a "lack of chemistry" and refusing to give details is a Grade A dick move.

Honestly, not really. It sucks, but from a risk management perspective, less information given out is always better. Was she fired for legit reasons? Who knows. There is no advantage to the employer to give reasons. You can't really blame anyone for trying not to be sued.

What could be a legit reason that could've given credence to a lawsuit?

If the reason was: "You're a woman" then they should've been sued.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#405

Post by setr »

asdff wrote: post #384
setr wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general problem, I think, is that talking the talk is not that hard, especially if you're not already well-covered in that domain (e.g. an established department/strong competency in the specific area) -- see all of sales. It's not that hard even if you are well-covered in that domain -- see all of pre-sales, and all of consulting. The fundamental issue is that describing a solution in broad strokes is much easie…

That's a potential issue in every job in every field. Somehow, it's only tech interviews that assign candidates unpaid homework. How are bridges not collapsing left and right from all the incompetent civil engineers they've been hiring with no whiteboard interviews?? Because you don't need to assign homework to probe whether or not a candidate knows the stuff they put on their resume. You can just talk to them about…

> How are bridges not collapsing left and right from all the incompetent civil engineers they've been hiring with no whiteboard interviews??

What? Other engineering fields have certifications and standards processes that actually mean something, and enforcement of it. That’s how they determine the baseline standard.

Software engineering’s closest thing is a 4-year degree who’s so routinely undervalued (per alignment to work requirements) it’s challenged by 3 month bootcamps, which are themselves challenged by garage-living dropouts with no explicit formal education.

And traditionally you had near-decade training with an apprentice/master system, or in a trade school, or expected-lifetime employment & training with the same company.

Software development is pretty new in trying to force feed training in large quantities with little to no verification, standards process or really any legitimate first or third-party trust-rings or evaluation process. I mean shit we’re still running on the assumption that the 20-year old dropout has decent potential to be an expert in his field ala wiz/gates/carmack.

As an industry, I think we’re fairly unique in our general incompetence.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#406

Post by jerome-jh »

From what I can read organizations are somewhat awkward in their efforts to help women. Otherwise from the article:

1 & 3: the internship mentor is honest even when saying "interns have to learn". This is not discrimination. The fact UI dev interns do not pass a test versus data science interns is not that shocking. In 3 he tries to solve his problems with the help of the intern. That's quite unfair. At the minimum he should have obtained the intern's agreement beforehand, whether a man or woman.

2: a company of assholes

4: I guess companies should not single out women once they are on payroll. That's not helping them.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#407

Post by coldtea »

cambalache wrote: post #182
coldtea wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One manager asked me "What was it like growing up Native American? Was it hard? Tell me about how hard it was for you." It felt gross. While "diversity via token hires", and "faux-diversity celebrations with folklore food, music, etc" are fake-ass and crinzy, I don't see the manager's question as gross. It's a legitimate question a human being can make to another. We're not just individual snowflakes, we're also pe…

NO! I have noticed that many white Americans cannot fathom how patronizing and "otherizing" are many of the attitudes they take. "Oh my god, it must have been hard to grow up as a POC, you must be so strong". " I am fully aware of my privilege , I had loving parents and a functional family, I must not assume other people had that luck" . "Racists cannot understand that the expectations for POC must be different becau…

>NO! I have noticed that many white Americans cannot fathom how patronizing and "otherizing" are many of the attitudes they take.

Well, I'm not American - and like many other cultures that aren't exactly black but just aren't WASP, my people weren't even considered white by Americans.

But I see no problem with "otherizing" you seem to fear so much. Is it an American pre-occupation, that every ethnic person is necessarily just a good-old American, with no distinction or unique experience coming out of an all-american melting pot?

And if you acknolwedge that an Italian American or an Native American, or an Asian American, etc could have different experiences growing up in the US because of their ethnicity/heritage you're "otherizing" and that's bad?

What the duck is wrong with a culture so afraid of discussing these things (except in adversarial tones: X are evil, Y have privilege, mentioning Z is otherizing, asking K is patronizing, and so on)?

>If the applicant was white, should the manager have asked them; "Oh wow as a half Italian/half English person , how was to grow up in the suburbs of New Jersey, was it difficult? Was it hard? Gee I cannot begin to imagine how strong you are"

Depends of if whites had it bad statistically, or perhaps whites from some specific area. I'd sure ask whites from Alaska say how it was growing up there, or italians from the Bronx in the 30s, etc...

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#408

Post by coldtea »

wombatmobile wrote: post #168
coldtea wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One manager asked me "What was it like growing up Native American? Was it hard? Tell me about how hard it was for you." It felt gross. While "diversity via token hires", and "faux-diversity celebrations with folklore food, music, etc" are fake-ass and crinzy, I don't see the manager's question as gross. It's a legitimate question a human being can make to another. We're not just individual snowflakes, we're also pe…

> But really, it's a question one might legitimately ask another they met at a bar or an airplane, or some such... Really? Consider it this way, by substituting x for something that fits for you personally: What was it like growing up x? Was it hard? Tell me about how hard it was for you." How might you feel by the end of the flight?

>What was it like growing up x? Was it hard? Tell me about how hard it was for you."

I don't see absolutely any problem with that. In fact it's something we talk about frequently in casual discussions.

Sure beats BS casual talk that means nothing. It also gives you the opportunity to give the other person an idea about x (e.g. my ethnicity).

Perhaps it's about different ways societies see casual talk?

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#409

Post by coldtea »

jberryman wrote: post #248
coldtea wrote: post #130

Two things some people have difficulty differentiating between: - Being discriminated or insulted for being X vs: - Made fun or insulted with reference to X Not getting a job, a promotion, or even simply heard by your colleagues because you're X is discrimination. Being treated worse because of X is discrimination. Being called anti-X slurs by people considering X being inferior is racism. But being insulted or made…

As a white, straight, cisgender, male, , I can't say I've ever been "insulted with reference to X" in the workplace. The "let me explain discrimination to you" responses from white men in this thread is really cringe-inducing.

Well, I'm not exactly white or American, so your comment is somewhat cringe-inducing.

That said as a X (ethnicity), straight, cisgender, male, I can say I have been mocked in jest, insulted in anger, etc for all those things in the workplace, and did the same to others in rounds. Both in 100% uniform teams, and in mixed teams.

Welcome to the real world.

Re: Four times I felt discriminated against for being a female developer

#410

Post by coldtea »

jeofken wrote: post #157
coldtea wrote: post #130

Two things some people have difficulty differentiating between: - Being discriminated or insulted for being X vs: - Made fun or insulted with reference to X Not getting a job, a promotion, or even simply heard by your colleagues because you're X is discrimination. Being treated worse because of X is discrimination. Being called anti-X slurs by people considering X being inferior is racism. But being insulted or made…

Males joke with cruelty to test each other. We do in every culture. If you are not strong and team focused enough to laugh it off and banter, you are not trustworthy to carry your load for the group.

Exactly. And they will use whatever attribute they think of.
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