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School or Prison

schoolprison.com

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Re: School or Prison

#401

Post by apocolyps6 »

ascar wrote: post #356
escape_goat wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could we just not do things like this. I'm sorry to be singling anyone out but there is a pattern here. People, the "well actually" rebuttals that you pull out of thin air in two minutes are not a useful or meaningful response to someone's reportage of their lives experience and do not facilitate the quality of discussion that brought you to HN in the first place, and if you do not understand that then consider that…

Could we please not try to prohibit critique and discussion just because someone doesn't agree with it? Open discussion and well founded criticism is what makes me read the comments. I actually was searching for a response to GP claims about prison not being a deterrent and if nobody had mentioned it would commented it myself. To add to the arguments: GP even contradicts himself by stating how bad prison is and that…

A contradiction is when two things both can't be true. Not just when things are unlikely to be true.

It would be a contradiction if people only ended up in prison because they wanted to go.

In reality many people commit crimes for other reasons, like lack of food and shelter.

Its much harder to get a job with a criminal record, so many former criminals end up forced back into criminal activities for food and shelter.

Re: School or Prison

#402

Post by stephen_g »

ip26 wrote: post #284
kristopolous wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call this "outlier driven policy"; one single instance of some thing happening some where at some time within the past 100 years means that everyone for perpetuity has to follow some new rule because the lim(x -> 0) risk is simply too much . For instance, there was one person, 2 decades ago, flying out of france, who hid a bomb in his shoes so today we are all still taking off our shoes, all of us, each time, on ev…

I mean, speaking of the shoes, yes it was one time. But once it was shown to work, there would probably have been many copycats without a countermeasure.

Few other countries make people take off their shoes through airport security... we haven’t had any copycat attacks.

Re: School or Prison

#403

Post by apocolyps6 »

justinclift wrote: post #376
escape_goat wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, assuming that you understand my point, how would you restate it in a way that didn't imply that a person who engaged in that sort of response was an idiot or capable of reasonable thought? I don't actually have a problem with people being wrong or not very bright in the comments they make. I have a problem with the arrogance and self-involvement that I feel responding to someone like this — someone who has lite…

> someone who has literally signed up to HN so that they could share a few paragraphs about their life Hmmm, I think we're coming at this from different places. Personally, I have no problem at all with people coming to HN to share their life experiences. For me, that helps my understanding of the world. :)

Right, but what about the people that respond by rejecting those experiences or implying something unsavory about the person sharing them?

Re: School or Prison

#405

Post by zermelo »

jollofricepeas wrote: post #372
nolongerlowres wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for posting this. I couldn’t believe the other comments trying to equate schools with prison. It’s unbelievable how we treat prisoners in the US. I wish there was more I could do than vote and donate to causes like the ACLU. Starting to realize that my beliefs are in the minority re: how to treat fellow countrymen, even those who have committed crimes.

For those who were wondering here’s the US recidivism rates as of 2018. Smells like success... „- An estimated 68% of released prisoners were arrested within 3 years, 79% within 6 years, and 83% within 9 years. - Almost half (47%) of prisoners who did not have an arrest within 3 years of release were arrested during years 4 through 9. - More than three-quarters (77%) of released drug ofenders were arrested for a non-…

what's the counterfactual? How can you tell the difference between "criminals are undeterred by prison and will commit offenses no matter what" and "prison hardens criminals and does not help with their reinsertion"?

Re: School or Prison

#406

Post by endominus »

zermelo wrote: post #405
jollofricepeas wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who were wondering here’s the US recidivism rates as of 2018. Smells like success... „- An estimated 68% of released prisoners were arrested within 3 years, 79% within 6 years, and 83% within 9 years. - Almost half (47%) of prisoners who did not have an arrest within 3 years of release were arrested during years 4 through 9. - More than three-quarters (77%) of released drug ofenders were arrested for a non-…

what's the counterfactual? How can you tell the difference between "criminals are undeterred by prison and will commit offenses no matter what" and "prison hardens criminals and does not help with their reinsertion"?

You can test that by looking at data from countries with less abusive prison systems. IIRC, they typically have much lower recidivism rates.

Re: School or Prison

#407

Post by runarberg »

ascar wrote: post #356
escape_goat wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could we just not do things like this. I'm sorry to be singling anyone out but there is a pattern here. People, the "well actually" rebuttals that you pull out of thin air in two minutes are not a useful or meaningful response to someone's reportage of their lives experience and do not facilitate the quality of discussion that brought you to HN in the first place, and if you do not understand that then consider that…

Could we please not try to prohibit critique and discussion just because someone doesn't agree with it? Open discussion and well founded criticism is what makes me read the comments. I actually was searching for a response to GP claims about prison not being a deterrent and if nobody had mentioned it would commented it myself. To add to the arguments: GP even contradicts himself by stating how bad prison is and that…

In behavioral science it is well documented that punishment is an ineffective driver for behavioral modification. In fact, for punishment to work at all it has to be consistent and immediate. Prison is neither.

So our best theory of behavioral modification states that prisons is not a deterrent for crime, nor is there any evidence for it in the records. All the while prisons are an inhumane and terrible way to treat people. Can we just please abolish prisons.

Re: School or Prison

#408

Post by endominus »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #380
S_A_P wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem as I see it is politicians don’t want to be the person legislating prison reform when it is so easy for their opponents to blame a horrendous crime on their “soft on crime” stance. I do think prison is at least a partial deterrent for me and my actions but it’s certainly not my main motivation for my actions. The problem with prison is the permanent stigma and lack of options for those with criminal recor…

On the other hand, a lot of the "tough on crime" messaging comes from the unique context of the 70s and 80s, when crime was much higher than today and continually rising. I'm hopeful that prison reform is a much more politically palatable message now that crime has been trending down for decades.

Crime may be trending down, but I think the perception is that it's more common - I remember reading the results of multiple polls to that effect over the last decade. People consistently believe that crime has gotten worse. Part of there blame was placed on the news media overreporting crime stories (as what else are they going to talk about when nothing exciting is happening?) which skews public perception of the actual scale of the problem.

Re: School or Prison

#409

Post by aegis4244 »

Bostonian wrote: post #384
KittenInABox wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[This comment previously contained an assumption that reducing poverty reduces crime rates. A poster commented that there isn't as much of a correlation as this comment stated so I removed it.]

Poverty rates fell in the 1960s, but crime rose.

Leaded gas.

Re: School or Prison

#410

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

endominus wrote: post #406
zermelo wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's the counterfactual? How can you tell the difference between "criminals are undeterred by prison and will commit offenses no matter what" and "prison hardens criminals and does not help with their reinsertion"?

You can test that by looking at data from countries with less abusive prison systems. IIRC, they typically have much lower recidivism rates.

That 100% ignores cultural, education, diversity, and tons of other issues.

Yea, I bet recidivism is low in Norway, who also has a very small chapter of MS13 or whatever gang you like, coincidentally.

I disagree you can look to some other country and make a fair comparison. The only way to do it would be to look at rates before and after some policy change.

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