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AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology

deepmind.com

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Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AlQuraishi described the progress made in CASP13 (2018) as “two CASPs in one”. This one is an even bigger breakthrough.

I particularly like the rant on pharmaceuticals companies lack of basic research. My impression has been that medical progression have been slow for quite some time, nice to see that there are some truth to that. In the end software and tech companies might just eat up the pharmaceutical industry as well. - It's all just code at some level. The Deepmind team did this with ; "We trained this system on publicly availab…

In a prior(/n) life I worked on Protein folding, and participated in CASP.

This was a/the "holy grail" problem of molecular biology, long thought to be an automatic Nobel. It's somewhat unfair to characterise developments prior to this as insignificant. In fact by the time I was working on it, that "automatic Nobel" was no longer assumed, because the field had made quite a bit of progress, in many tiny steps by many different groups, and the assumption was it would continue in this slog until reaching some state of sufficiency for practical applications without ever seeing the sort of singular achievement that would be worthy of praise and prize.

Far more went into this breakthrough, obviously, than those TPU-hours: the development of those TPUs, for example, and assembling a team that can make use of them. The protein folding problem requires very little knowledge of biology or physics to understand and was always pre-destined for some outsider to sweep. Indeed, there was game that allowed people to solve structures by intuition alone, and, IIRC, some 13-year old Mexican kid cleaned everyone's clock some years back.

Why didn't some research group do this first? Most of them just don't have the budget. We were five people, total, IIRC, and felt pretty rich because we were computer-people getting the same budget for materials as everyone at our institution, which was all wetlab, otherwise. So I was a student being paid $20/h but with a $50,000/p.a. hardware budget. How many false start does it take before you do that run with 128TPUs "for a few weeks" that works? If you blow your budget on one gigantic Google invoice, what's going to happen to you when it doesn't pan out, and the whole institute laughs at you? Etc...

There are quite a few rather good things this problem has inspired over the years, though. Among them is CASP itself: the idea of instituting a yearly competition that gives unequivocal feedback on the state of the field and every group working on it is rather rare, I believe, and it's been successful. Indeed, it would seem that CASP was necessary to attract outside groups like Deepmind, i. e. deep-pocketed industry groups striving to prove themselves on a clearly defined problem. Chess, Jeopardy, CASP: maybe it would be worthwhile to explore not , but as a superior strategy in some cases.

There was also folding@home, pioneering the distributed-donated-computing model, and the aforementioned gamification of the problem, and hundreds of the most intricate, custom-tailed, more-or-less insane ideas people devoted months and/or careers and/or careers of their most promising post-docs to that didn't pan out.

Like cellular automata. They don't work for this, trust me. (Great hit for interactive poster sessions, though)

Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 100 new structures each test cycle? That seems a very small test set size ... Is it really possible to select 100 new structures which together are likely to represent a meaningful increase in the sample generalization versus the prior years test set ...?

Given that we only know the structure of on the order of 100k proteins, we might only get another 10k new ones per year. I guess. Using 1% of those (presumably from the more-often-reproduced subset) for this challenge seems reasonable? Note that the structures have to remain secret up until the challenge, and presumably all those teams uncovering the structures don't want to have to wait up to 2 years every time to a…

Interesting ... plenty of opportunity then potentially for the 100 samples to have prediction similarity to the set of published discoveries (for expected or unknown reasons)?

I suppose it will take a few more years of repetition for the challenge to confirm that the problem has been been solved -- but I wonder if a new version of the contest is going to be needed as well? Maybe the model accuracy is now high enough to invert the contest to a form where models generate predictions for randomly selected unknown samples -- and experimental teams are then expected to make observations for those particular sequences over the next two years as part of their otherwise research agenda selected experimental workload?

Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology

#403
post #377

Not knowing a lot about biotechnology, I read the article and it sounds great, but how big is this as a gamechanger? Can someone comment on how big are the implications of this in, let’s say, 5 years from now, on day to day life? Does this mean that biotech is going to explode? Or just that drugs will come to market faster, perhaps cheaper for rare diseases, but from the same industry structure as always?

The industry process will not change. You still need industrial biologists to generate and validate AphaFold structures, interpret the results as part of the bigger picture, and to finally design the drugs. And, then, of course you still need to validate the drugs in experimental systems (first the test tube, then mice, then humans). So your second guess is correct - one of the steps is much cheaper now, which margin…

> "armies of students who routinely spend 4-6 years of their PhD trying to solve a structure of a single protein"

Back in the 1990s, when I worked on structure data, I remember that at least some crystallizations were easy enough they could be done as a rotation project.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6287266/ suggests that life is now a lot easier than the 1990s. Quoting the abstract:

> Macromolecular crystallography evolved enormously from the pioneering days, when structures were solved by “wizards” performing all complicated procedures almost by hand. In the current situation crystal structures of large systems can be often solved very effectively by various powerful automatic programs in days or hours, or even minutes. Such progress is to a large extent coupled to the advances in many other fields, such as genetic engineering, computer technology, availability of synchrotron beam lines and many other techniques, creating the highly interdisciplinary science of macromolecular crystallography. Due to this unprecedented success crystallography is often treated as one of the analytical methods and practiced by researchers interested in structures of macromolecules, but not highly competent in the procedures involved in the process of structure determination.

Certainly some proteins are extremely hard to crystallize, and the new single-atom EM work will help a lot. But are there really "armies of students who routinely spend 4-6 years of their PhD trying to solve a structure of a single protein" these days?

I honestly don't know. I'm sure some do. But if so, that army is pretty small compared to the vast numbers who more routinely use crystallography.

Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology

#405
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but many were skeptical as to the longevity of the performance DeepMind was able to achieve For a non-biologist, on what is this skepticism based? Just purely based on following ML news it looks like the trend for ML solutions has been that they've overtaken expert-systems once they've gained a solid foodhold in a field. Maybe this is some perception bias. Are there any cases where ML performed decently but then hi…

It's because for many researchers ML is just to take a standard keras or scikitlearn model shove their data in and get some table or number out, and see if that solves their problem. If that's your only ML experience then I suppose this is how sceptical you'd be of ML in general. It looks like DeepMind invented a completely new method for this round that's not just an extension of their previous work, showing how muc…

"It looks like DeepMind invented a completely new method for this round that's not just an extension of their previous work, showing how much you can gain if you don't shoebox yourself into just trying to improve existing methods. That all the scientists were highly skeptical about the scope of ML (and these are computer scientists to begin with mind you) just shows how little they knew of what they did know of what a computer or a program can possibly do, which is a bit appalling to be honest."

My PhD (now over a decade ago...yikes) was in applying much simpler ML methods to these kinds of problems (I started in protein folding, finished in protein / nucleic acid recognition, but my real interest was always protein design). Even back then, it was clear that ML methods had a lot more potential for structural biology (pun unintended) than for which they were being given credit. But it was hard to get interest from a research community that cared little about non-physical solutions. No matter how well you did, people would dismiss it as a "black box solution", and that pretty much limited your impact.

Some of this is understandable: even today, it's not at all clear that a custom-built ML model for protein folding is of much use to anyone -- particularly a model that doesn't consider all of the atoms in the protein. The traditional justification for research in this area is that if you could develop a sufficiently general model of protein physics, it would also allow you to do all sorts of other stuff that is much more interesting: rational protein design, drug binding, etc.

The alphafold model is not really useful for any of this, so in a way, it's kind of like the weinermobile of science: cool and impressive when done well ("hey! a giant hot dog on wheels!"), but not really useful outside of the niche for which it was designed. So it's hard to blame researchers in this field -- who generally have to chase funding and justify their existence -- from pursuing the application of deep learning to this one, narrow problem domain.

Obviously there will now be a wave of follow-on research, and it's impossible to know what methods this will spawn. Maybe this will revolutionize computational structural biology, maybe not. But I think it's a little unfair to demonize the entire field. Protein folding just traditionally hasn't been a very useful or interesting area, and like all "pure science", it leads to a lot of small-stakes, tribal thinking amongst the few players who can afford to compete. This is right out of Thomas Kuhn: a newcomer sweeps into a field, glances at the work of the past, then bashes it over the head, dismissively.

Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter so much how they perform the feature extraction, so much as what their inputs to the feature extraction are. This model requires a collection of wild-type proteins in an accurate MSA. Producing an accurate MSA is hard even if you have many homologs. They require protein homologs which means they can "only" do this for wild-type proteins. This work is useless with mutant and synthetic proteins. This…

> Producing an accurate MSA is hard even if you have many homologs. To assess co-evolutionary couplings the amount of homologs in the MSA is not as important as the number of effective sequences (i.e. sequence depth and diversity) in it. > They require protein homologs which means they can "only" do this for wild-type proteins. Even remote homologs work, as shown by the widespread use of HHM-based methods in the pred…

I'm honestly not familiar with "deep mutational scanning." Can you share a link? I'm first author on papers related to the structural biology of coevolution and I competed in CASP about a decade ago, but I haven't kept up much since then.

Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology

#407
post #233
post #118

Two years ago, after DeepMind submitted its first set of predictions to CASP (Critical Assessment of protein Structure Prediction), Mohammed AlQuraishi, an expert in the field, asked, "What just happened?" https://moalquraishi.wordpress.com/2018/12/09/alphafold-casp... Now that the problem of static protein structure prediction has been solved (prediction errors are below the threshold that is considered acceptable i…

AlQuraishi's tweet [0] about this: > CASP14 #s just came out and they’re astounding—DeepMind looks to have solved protein structure prediction. Median GDT_TS went from 68.5 (CASP13) to 92.4!!!! Cf. their 2nd best CASP13 struct scored 92.8 (out of 100). Median RMSD is 2.1Å. I think it's over https://predictioncenter.org/casp14/zscores_final.cgi [0]: https://twitter.com/MoAlQuraishi/status/1333383634649313280

> https://predictioncenter.org/casp14/zscores_final.cgi

`.cgi`... we've come full circle

Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, credit where credit is due. Google employs some of the greatest names in artificial intelligence and the DeepMind team had a huge chunk of them working on this problem. While the resources may have been available, I don’t think any other single institution had the level of brain power.

It also makes one reconsider the notion that monopolies are entirely bad. This essentially appears to be a vanity project for Google. Though of course they'll benefit from it in many ways, but it's not like they're doing this as the core product of their service. It's a pretty awesome achievement.

Not even a little bit. There is nothing here that would require Google to be a monopoly to accomplish. If anything companies become lazy without competition.

I feel like that is not too far from saying it makes one reconsider communism because good things can happen with authoritarian control.

Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology

#409
post #343
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point; this system certainly didn't come from nowhere! The protein datasets they used also mostly came out of various NIH-funded projects. What I meant to focus on was that I think DeepMind has less of a pure money/scale advantage in this area than in some others. In something like Go or Atari game-playing, there are many academic groups researching similar things, but their resources are laughably smal…

Personally I think a major part of the secret sauce is Google's internal compute infrastructure. When I was an academic, 50% of my time went to building infra to do my science. At Google, petabytes of storage, millions of cores, algorithms, and brains were all easily tappable within a common software repo and cluster infrastructure. That immediately translates to higher scientific productivity.

Has cloud computing changed this?

Re: AlphaFold: a solution to a 50-year-old grand challenge in biology

#410

Did AlphaFold2 also have the biggest budget? :) Edit: from the other HN article on this topic: > We trained this system on publicly available data consisting of ~170,000 protein structures from the protein data bank together with large databases containing protein sequences of unknown structure. It uses approximately 128 TPUv3 cores (roughly equivalent to ~100-200 GPUs) run over a few weeks https://deepmind.com/blog/…

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