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Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

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Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#401
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too complex metaphor for me. If I've understood you, the flow is not exactly the trade. That's open to a lot of distracting objections. Beautiful anyway :)

Thank you. Maybe it's easier to recover the river from the optimisation case: we profile first, then optimise. This is because the only things that count are what actually eat wall clock time. Similarly, the only places in value chains that accumulate wealth are where there are actually consistent margins. And it doesn't matter if there are rocks in a riverbed (which could potentially make bottlenecks or waterfalls),…

I didn't mean it doesn't.

My point was that trade, in a wide sense, creates wealth. No one would cross the sea or the desert if there wasn't a prize, so I take for granted that there is an inbalance.

"Bottleneck" seems to suggest that commerce is like a natural process. It isn't. There are trade cultures like Phoenicians or Renaissance Venice, but often the powerful don't like commerce. Commerce implies some values that subvert authoritarian regimes, maybe just because different ways of understanding life make contact.

So when I hear bottleneck, I think of trade restrictions, not flow. You mean bottleneck as a funnel where the flow is more intense and thus more susceptible to capture wealth. It makes sense, but it's somehow a twisted metaphor, because it's the inbalance (gravity, or demand + the cheaper production elsewhere) that creates the flow, the bottleneck just make it easier to exploit. But a cascade can be wide or narrow, tall or short. In any case, there's water falling...

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exect that "Gender" in relationship to any animal or conversation is used interchangeably with sex. While Gender-identity is the new age belief that your "Gender-identity" or gender for short, is a preference you can change (With or without sex change operations depending on your political view). The obfuscation of the word itself is a problem in discussions. I find it distastefull how people can 'identify as' male/f…

> then wether or not you personally identify as certain characteristics should be a moot point I quite agree, but the it's indisputable that these characteristics are enshrined in our culture and power structures every step of the way. Gendered bathrooms, gendered application forms, gendered names, gendered clothing, and so on. If you "personally identify as certain characteristics" it's literally impossible for that…

>these characteristics are enshrined in our culture and power structures every step of the way. In a way, yes. Because sex is the largest difference between human beings. Its importance is highlighted by doctors needing to know for better treatment, for social circles not being comfortable around people further away from your group. Bathrooms being a painpoint as it has deep roots in culture and history. Though the interesting thing about which bathroom to go to, it becomes irrelivant the moment you enter someone's home; there is only one or two to choose from and they are "Gender neutral" by design.

>Will you be fired for wearing a dress when your boss sees you as a man? This is exactly my point, discrimination based on immutable characteristics is wrong. if your boss fires you because you're a man or sees you as a man, or makes judgements because you're a woman pretending to be a man is wrong by design because it is still based on immutable characterstics. Though dress code violation is such a grey area as it is not directly based on strong legal precedent.

>If you are forced to put your biological sex on the application form, what if your new workplace outs you as "a man" "IF" you are forced to do so. I've never seen it be mandatory. unless you talk about exeptions to the rule. Like how some women's shelters only hire women. or gynecologists.

>will they ostracize you, call the police, or exact violence on you because you don't fit in their worldview of acceptable behavior? Nonetheless, anti-discrimination laws aren't there to stop discrimination or stop people from breaking the law. They are there to put them on trial. Lots of people fall out of a certain worldview and have lost jobs and friends because of that. talk to any clean heroin addict and they'll tell you. These things certainly matter and should be discussed as you are so kind to do.

I guess my approach is more conservative when it comes to enacting change in how people are treating each other. I consider no solution better than a bad solution. as no solution at least lets people have the freedom to treat eachother with the respect that they might deserve.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#403
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You implied that the west keeping the devil dictator is better than having a revolution and for people to chose their own destiny. Even if it looks like a warzone now, assuming those people are left alone to decide their future, they will go back to peace and prosperity instead of having someone millions miles away decide what they eat, think and see.

> Even if it looks like a warzone now So you are just going to ignore the hundreds of thousands of people getting killed in the warzone? Is that the price for freedom and peace?

Yes it is.

Do you think democracy and freedom comes out of nothing? Check the french revolution, history of the UK and other democracies. There is always blood before things go back to be better.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#404
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if it looks like a warzone now So you are just going to ignore the hundreds of thousands of people getting killed in the warzone? Is that the price for freedom and peace?

Yes it is. Do you think democracy and freedom comes out of nothing? Check the french revolution, history of the UK and other democracies. There is always blood before things go back to be better.

So if you were in living in a warzone, would you be ok for you and your family to be killed as a price for freedom. I dont think so, its easy to say that when your life is not on the line.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#405
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Japan went from insular agrarianism to a world power to collapse to continued scientific development through to the 21st century. As did much of the Far East. Why not the Middle east? There are lots of theories, of course, but one I find interesting is that East Asia, in addition to never being colonized to the same extent as most places, emerged with national boundaries largely intact. The Middle East was under fo…

> countries with huge natural resources Can confirm. That's why Russia is sliding down scientifically. People gravitate to where money and prestige is, and when you have money squirting from the ground, that demands (and receives) disproportionate attention. Another side effect of this is that it suffocates technology and innovation by both depriving it of investment, and by shaping the tax structure that excludes th…

Norway and United States?

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#406
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in fact the West is the single sustained success story out of many civilizations with periods of scientific flourishing I find this statement problematic. The West is leading the current period of scientific revolution, as the Muslims, the ancient Chinese and Indians did during their periods of scientific achievement.

But doesn’t “sustained” just mean that we haven’t seen the end of it?

Globalization certainly makes it harder to end, although certain political forces in the Western world would love a return to a mix of authoritarian fascism and religious monarchies.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#407
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> countries with huge natural resources Can confirm. That's why Russia is sliding down scientifically. People gravitate to where money and prestige is, and when you have money squirting from the ground, that demands (and receives) disproportionate attention. Another side effect of this is that it suffocates technology and innovation by both depriving it of investment, and by shaping the tax structure that excludes th…

Norway and United States?

Not corrupt enough to turn resource extraction into a source of wealth for the ruling regime. Unlike Russia.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than all of this - the key is political leaders. Visionary political leaders make or break their country or end civilizations. Both India and America are witnessing this currently with their respective elected right-wing "leaders" in Narendra Modi and Donald Trump. In India Astrology is now being treated as a Science and the Modi government is considering allowing alternate medicine (Ayurveda / Homeopathy / Unan…

> In India Astrology is now being treated as a Science and the Modi government is considering allowing alternate medicine (Ayurveda / Homeopathy / Unani) "doctors" to prescribe allopathic medicines. I have had Astrologers visit my house when Modi was no where around in the national political scene. And exploring alternative medicine is hardly specific to Modi government. Even WHO is doing it: https://edition.cnn.com/…

> I have had Astrologers visit my house when Modi was no where around in the national political scene.

But did you treat these astrologers as scientists? The problem is not with astrology existing as it does in some form or the other in every country - the problem is in trying to promote it and give it some legitimacy by declaring it as a science!

That is what the religious fundamentalists in power are doing in India because they associate their form of astrology with their religion. If it is treated as science, would you like space launches or missile tests, for examples, to be decided based on the "auspicious" time figured through the "science" of astrology, even if the atmospheric conditions or not suitable for the launch at this time?

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like overstating the facts to support your own views. Can you please tell which recently enacted laws treat Astrology as a Science?

It's not a recently enacted law - propagating it as scientific was set in force in 2001 by the then BJP HRD Minister Murli Manohar Joshi, who asked the UGC (by then filled with RSS religious fundamentalists) to fund BSc and MSc courses in Astrology. It was challenged legally but the courts refused to overturn the decision of the UGC. It was challenged again in courts in 2011, but it did not succeed. - https://www.wsw…

There is a huge difference between saying a guy from BJP asked some committee to fund Astrology courses and saying that in India Astrology is now being treated as a Science.

I am sure you wont get it as it seems from your posting history that you are extremely biased or worse you are a blogger from a hired private blog network

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a recently enacted law - propagating it as scientific was set in force in 2001 by the then BJP HRD Minister Murli Manohar Joshi, who asked the UGC (by then filled with RSS religious fundamentalists) to fund BSc and MSc courses in Astrology. It was challenged legally but the courts refused to overturn the decision of the UGC. It was challenged again in courts in 2011, but it did not succeed. - https://www.wsw…

There is a huge difference between saying a guy from BJP asked some committee to fund Astrology courses and saying that in India Astrology is now being treated as a Science. I am sure you wont get it as it seems from your posting history that you are extremely biased or worse you are a blogger from a hired private blog network

> BJP asked some committee to fund Astrology courses

Yes, fund Astrology courses and offer it as SCIENCE degrees - that's BSc and MSc degrees on something that is not even a psedu science but total bullshit. What an incredible waste of money and resources! Anf why - because these religious fundamentalists think of it as a "Science" and want to give it some legitimacy.

> I am sure you wont get it as it seems from your posting history that you are extremely biased

Oh yes. I openly admit that I am no admirer of the religious fundamentalists currently in power and ruling my country. Their retrograde ideology is not spreading discontent and polarising communities, they are also slowly destroying India's economy.

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