How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#401

Post by mmsimanga » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:41 AM UTC

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #258

mmsimanga wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a different problem in my country of residence in that policing is a federal/national function. There are two arms of police, crime is handled by national police and enforcing of city by laws is done by the city/metro police. It just feels like police don't have enough local leadership. I always thought the US system where the police report to the mayor enables the mayor (read local person) to have a fair say…

In practice how it works in most large cities in the US is the mayor ends up deferring to police leadership because the police hold so much influence over local political conditions. Mayors that get tough on dirty cops find themselves riding a wave of crime atop the police deciding to simply stop policing certain sorts of calls or in particular areas.

Ah now that makes sense. Like most management jobs you don't really have as much power as you think you have. You need developers to be on your side otherwise you no going to achieve much with your team fighting you.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#402

Post by chr1 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:42 AM UTC

chii wrote: post #372

chr1 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea about presentations is very good, but it alone won't fix the problem. We need to be able to vote for individual decisions instead of people, and we on hn are best positioned to fix the democracy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23377423

> We need to be able to vote for individual decisions instead of people What about this: for most decisions, people elect their representative, and don't directly participate. The representative votes on decisions in gov't, but their vote is weighted by the number of people they represent (let's call this V). However, if there is an issue that a person deems important to participate in, then that person gets to direc…

Exactly, i had tried to describe this in the linked submission by saying "you can put your vote to follow someone else" and you described that better. The fact that many people come to the same idea independently means that time is ripe for that idea to become reality.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#403

Post by chr1 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:55 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #358

chr1 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea about presentations is very good, but it alone won't fix the problem. We need to be able to vote for individual decisions instead of people, and we on hn are best positioned to fix the democracy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23377423

It's interesting how the idea of some form of direct democracy never even comes up in conversation . Of course I wouldn't expect any current or former politician to suggest the idea, but even in conversation on HN or in the general public, I'm not sure if I've ever encountered it before. Of course, there will be no shortage of overly enthusiastic (and absolutely confident) defeatism " We 'can't' do it because x, y, z…

Unfortunately most people do not really believe in ability of other people to make rational decisions, even though they say that they support democracy. There is zero hope that any politician at power to suggest an idea that would remove all of his power, but a few days ago i have realized that we do not need to implement this on government level from the start, a group of parties who do not have a chance to be elected can implement this on a party level and increase their chance of being elected.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#404

Post by mhh__ » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 9:58 AM UTC

kryogen1c wrote: post #67

frogpelt wrote: post #44

I agree with almost everything Mr. Obama wrote. But... I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. Because it accomplishes the exact opposite of they hope it will accomplish: 1. Those who side with heavy-handed police tactics feel vindicated for their prejudices. 2. The communities of those who feel unheard and left out are torn down…

> Just using common sense tells me that if you can name off the victims it means the problem isn’t widespread or systemic across the country. true, but the counterpoint is the problem is not the volume of errors, its how the errors are handled. people know those names because the issues were never closed. Public servants like police officers should be open kimono; if someone dies, it should be a big deal. where's the…

The US imprisons roughly 5 times as many black people as a proportion of it's population than apartheid South Africa, it's volume too.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#405

Post by krapp » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 10:14 AM UTC

afiori wrote: post #337

krapp wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same justification many people used for voting for Trump, which was that?

I am sorry, I am a bit lost, but if Trump election had to be one of those three it would have been a democratic protest against the establishment. Or were you referring to something else?

Many Trump supporters (primarily the alt-right and white supremacist fringe) didn't simply protest against the establishment, and certainly didn't intend to do so democratically (as that would imply a belief in the legitimacy of the system and the views of their opponents.) They voted with the intent of seeing the system destroyed and an ethnostate emerging from the rubble. Reasonable people can disagree about the size and relative influence of this contingent on the election, but it exists.

Drawing too many parallels between that and the protestors would be unfair, particularly where motive is concerned, but it is hard not to notice the energy is the same in a lot of ways. One side doing violence against the system and another doing violence against infrastructure, each because they feel the system has been irreparably damaged by the influence of the other.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#406

Post by someguyorother » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 10:53 AM UTC

shuntress wrote: post #284

someguyorother wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A control theory idea: use continuous voting. When the support falls below some threshold (e.g. 50%), kick the candidate out. But now you'll get an unstable system where candidates get kicked out all the time and are too populist because they don't expect to live long. So add a low-pass filter. When the moving average of the candidate's support falls below the threshold and a definite other candidate's support is hig…

Not a bad idea but it probably depends on a level of convenience and ease of access to voting that does not seem to exist currently. Unrelated side note: when you are talking about a hypothetical politician, be aware of your choice of pronoun. You might be the type of person who picks between he/she with a precise 50/50 split but I'm going to assume you are not that type of person. Similar to the way you seem to have…

FWIW, English is my second language, and my first language has grammatical genders that don't have anything to do with real genders. We were also taught that "he" is the default pronoun in English.

I guess some of that bleeds through: that I use "he" without reflecting on it because it wouldn't carry an implication of actual gender in my first language. I am definitely not assuming that politics is a men's only club.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#407

Post by someguyorother » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:00 AM UTC

a9h74j wrote: post #376

systemvoltage wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only on HN do you find a theory of politics based on Controls/DSP fundamentals. Nyquist plot of political instability would be nice. I applaud you.

Okay, so this is where I will bring my proposal for Modular Government. Next ammendment: direct election of cabinet members. Also, all changes to policies to be parameterized and adiabatic.

>Also, all changes to policies to be parameterized and adiabatic.

"No heat, only work". I like that proposal :-)

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#408

Post by afiori » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:07 AM UTC

krapp wrote: post #405

afiori wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry, I am a bit lost, but if Trump election had to be one of those three it would have been a democratic protest against the establishment. Or were you referring to something else?

Many Trump supporters (primarily the alt-right and white supremacist fringe) didn't simply protest against the establishment, and certainly didn't intend to do so democratically (as that would imply a belief in the legitimacy of the system and the views of their opponents.) They voted with the intent of seeing the system destroyed and an ethnostate emerging from the rubble. Reasonable people can disagree about the si…

Ok, so what? I have no sympathy for violent far right extremism and I intend to denounce neo-nazist ideologies as much as I can. Especially since it has devolved into (mostly non collective) violence already.

On the other hand your comment is saying that one of the worst thing those groups collectively did was voting. I don't think you are making the argument you think you are making.

On the other hand, if you are saying that the other side might start rioting too; isn't that an argument for deescalation?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#409

Post by austincheney » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:30 AM UTC

User23 wrote: post #390

austincheney wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware more than most. I am a warrant officer in the US Army entering my 5th overseas deployment.

I thought that was mostly a navy thing these days. If you don't mind my asking, what kind of jobs does the Army have warrant officers do?

I am a signal (telecommunications) officer.

First deployment (Dec 2003-Dec 2004, E6) I ran the operations floor during night shift in 335th Theater Signal Command, which put me in charge of up time and status for all voice and digital communications in Kuwait, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

Second (Jul 2009-Jul 2010, E6) I travel across Afghanistan performing information security audits of major and minor US Army bases. I was able to pick up my CISSP at the end of this.

Third (Dec 2012-Jan 2013, E7) I was NCOIC of Knowledge Management for 311th Sustainment Command in Afghanistan where I trained and coordinated with 24 staff sections to increase their information transparency and produce common/integrated products.

Fourth (Oct 2018-July 2019, CW2) I was chief of network operations for the 300th Sustainment Brigade in Kuwait.

Fifth, I will be there soon.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#410

Post by jessaustin » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:45 AM UTC

devalgo wrote: post #179

teachrdan wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the contrary, the prosecutor had this to say about why he had not pressed charges: 'But my job in the end is to prove he violated a criminal statute - but there is other evidence that does not support a criminal charge.'[0] This quotation is from a tabloid, but the quote--and the DA's failure to say unequivocally that he would prosecute Floyd's killer, Chauvin--contributed to the riots. And then Chauvin was arrest…

Attorney General != District Attorney last time I checked.

DAs decide whether to file murder charges. AGs are not relevant to the process.