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Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

bbc.com

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Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#401

Post by robocat »

derefr wrote: post #288
MS90 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading a story a while back about a kid that threw rocks at a tree full of crows one day when he was walking to the school bus. After that day, the crows decided that this child was the enemy. Many kids walked past the tree on the way to the school bus every day and the crows completely ignored them, but when little rock thrower walked by he'd literally get shit bombed by 20-30 crows all the way to the bu…

I wonder if anyone’s ever done an experiment on the social connectivity of crows, by first somehow pissing off an entire flock of crows; and then tagging a particular individual crow, and repeatedly being friendly to/appeasing that crow, and seeing how long the it takes for the message that you’re not such a jerk after all to spread among the rest of the crow population.

The book "King Solomon's Ring" is by an Austrian naturalist with a few chapters on crows: quite amazing observations.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#402

Post by nikofeyn »

that’s a bad assumption that primates are the second most intelligent animal. i am personally convinced that dolphins, in particular orcas, a much smarter than any primate species.

orcas are almost always left out of intelligence of animals discussions, but they have a very refined intelligence that doesn’t require leaps of faith to say, woah, that is very high level cognition going on.

at least the article includes this quote:

> Ranking the intelligence of animals seems an increasingly pointless exercise when one considers the really important thing: how well that animal is adapted to its niche

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#404

Post by EvanAnderson »

dbingham wrote: post #279
dta3456 wrote: post #139

When I was a child, I'd spend a lot of time at my grandfathers farm, and one summer he took in an injured crow that hurt its wing. For some strange reason, he named all of his animals Jack, cats, dogs and now crows. So we'd go out in the morning and my grandfather would call out "Jack" and the Dog would come running down the yard, and then next thing you'd see the crow hopping down the yard after the dog. It would ar…

Crows also have vocal chords capable of producing human language, and - similar to parrots - they can learn human phrases in the right conditions. My partner used to volunteer at the local Wildcare and they had an injured crow resident that they couldn't release named Da Vinci. Da Vinci would always greet visitors with "Hello! How are you? How are you?"

There is an American Crow in an enclosure at a local wildlife rescue. He can't be released because of his injuries, so he's one of the center's permanent residents. He won't speak on command, but he will immitate sounds he hears (he does a ringtone sort of sound) and he will say "American Crow" every so often.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#406

Post by jacobmoe »

eps wrote: post #208
tannhaeuser wrote: post #159

Crows are known to give "presents" to humans they like, such as dropping small pieces of metal they picked up, or worms. Also, crows have very rich tribal behaviours going on. There's a town close to mine called Husum (in North Germany) where there's a multi-year battle going on between crows in the park. You immediately notice it by the noise, and in fact by dead crows lying on the ground.

Cats tend to bring gifts too. My grandmother used to receive that of dead moles, freshly caught mice and what have you, invariably placed dead center on her pillow. She wasn't a fan of that cat before, and she didn't like it much better after. No idea why.

My mother's cat used to carry live mice into the house and release them. He'd bat the stunned mouse around but not kill it. I would have to catch the mouse and bring it back outside. The exact opposite behavior you want from a cat.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#407

Post by mettamage »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #202
DagAgren wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crows do this to some extent. They gather collective knowledge and pass it on to their offspring. If you act maliciously towards a crow, it will teach its friends that you are dangerous, and they will all warn each other if you approach. This will keep happening even after the original crows are dead, because they will teach their children that you are an asshole, too, even though those children may never have seen y…

Yes, and that's a step up from a blank slate for every generation. But humans take it much further by creating powerful abstractions, and transmitting specifics and abstractions in a form that survives the death of the original creator. I can read Newton's Principia online, or take an undergrad physics course. His insights are still shaping our world view even though he's been dead for centuries now. Only humans have…

So would you then argue that before humans invented writing, they were on the same levels as crows.

Crows have an oral tradition, and so did humans in that time, therefore they're about as equally smart, back then?

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#408

Post by mettamage »

marcosdumay wrote: post #278
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A wild untrained human animal isn't that bright. We can probably operate above the crow level, but maybe not by much. What makes us special is persistent collective learning and abstract communication. Unlike animals, generations of humans don't have to keep re-solving the same problems. As a species we have cumulative persistent memory for techniques and abstractions. That's the real game changer. But it took a surp…

I don't think the expression "wild untrained human" even makes sense. There haven't been any wild untrained human ancestor since a long time before humans appeared. Also, most smart animals have persistent knowledge that they pass from one generation to the other. We are just smarter than those other animals. Tens of thousands of years ago, humans were already a force not to be messed with. Hell, a million years ago…

There are still wild untrained humans. In most cases, it's a very sad state of affairs when that happens since a lot of child neglect has to occur. But I'd argue that children that have been fed but other than that left alone for 10 years, classify as an "untrained" human.

It's sad, but they do exist.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child

(thanks boatswain for providing the link in another comment)

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#409

Post by klyrs »

m463 wrote: post #391
wDcBKgt66V8WDs wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inverse story: my dad sprayed water at a crow on his lawn, the crow then took to perching on the clogged gutter above the front door and kicking water at anyone who walked under.

Being a Dad means to set a good example. Otherwise you get buffonery like this. :)

My dad set lots of examples. They don't have to be good examples, to teach valuable lessons.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#410

Post by jyounker »

ajuc wrote: post #128
djtriptych wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But to be fairer (to crows), I've witnessed crows just cross the yellow painted lines in a road to get to safety. They've adapted to our traffic rules.

They 'bomb' the street with walnuts where i live to open them. That's smart but not that impressive. What's impressive is - they don't do it on the parking lots where cars rarely drive, nor on the main road where cars drive constantly. They target pedestrian crossing near the main road, wait for cars to crack the walnut, then eat it. They understand where the perfect number of cars is gonna be.

In Davis, CA they would perch on power lines holding a walnut in one claw, positioned over on of the wheel paths, and wait until a car was approaching in the appropriate position, and then drop the walnut just before the car arrived. They had a pretty good success rate.

Others just dropped them from high altitudes. I suspect the ones on the power lines were just showing off; as much fun as need.

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