Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#401

Post by dlitz » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:06 AM UTC

I don't believe rms is seriously in favor of child sexual exploitation, but that's a red herring.

The concern for me is has been the accounts of far more directly-relevant behaviour, such as (iirc):

  * repeated phone calls to someone from different phone numbers

  * leering

  * breaking the ground rules for an event, and justifying it on the basis that he's personally exempt from any rules

  * singling out a teenage girl attending one of his talks (as in "oh wow, a GIRL")

  * single her out again while telling his questionable 'EMACS virgins' joke

  * saying in an interview that he didn't know any women who have contributed to GCC, when there had been at least 4

It all adds up to several accounts of people saying they've left the free software movement (or avoided it entirely) because of his behaviour combined with his stature. As a community leader who supposedly leads by example, he needs to do better, and if he doesn't, the community needs to hold him accountable. That's happening now.

Personally, I think this is a good thing, and I'm glad that he's made the decision to step aside (even if under pressure) rather than fight bitterly and see the community divide along these lines.

It also seems like a good opportunity for him to pass the torch and see what happens, or at least take a long hiatus to get some caring advice and to sort himself out, like Linus did last year. The FSF will eventually need to become an institution that can carry on its mission without him, and this will be a good test of that. If things go off the rails, he can pen another manifesto and I'm sure a bunch of us will read it.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#402

Post by paxys » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:10 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #385

paxys wrote: post #363

People going on about how he made some harmless comments which have been misrepresented have no clue about how toxic RMS has been for decades. The latest comments (especially coming while the nation is still reeling from the Epstein affair) are the absolute tip of the iceberg. He has been openly sexually harassing female staff and students for a long time now, and has been tolerated or enabled by other powerful figur…

Citation needed. Not saying it is or is not true. But these are powerful claims to be marking with no sources.

Lots of citations at https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#403

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:11 AM UTC

dlitz wrote: post #401

I don't believe rms is seriously in favor of child sexual exploitation, but that's a red herring. The concern for me is has been the accounts of far more directly-relevant behaviour, such as (iirc): * repeated phone calls to someone from different phone numbers * leering * breaking the ground rules for an event, and justifying it on the basis that he's personally exempt from any rules * singling out a teenage girl at…

[deleted]

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#404

Post by thundergolfer » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:14 AM UTC

js8 wrote: post #150

I am glad that people didn't force Chomsky to resign from MIT due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair . Freedom of speech means that people are free to defend what other people find morally objectionable. The idea that the "leaders" should be morally pure is understandable, but ultimately very elitist. It also reminds me of this article: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/neurodiver...

The situation with Chomsky is not equivalent to this. Chomsky did not want Faurisson prosecuted by French law for his views. Chomsky did not himself express the bad views.

Stallman here was the one expressing the bad views, so he is Faurisson not Chomsky.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#405

Post by throwaway8941 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:15 AM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #322

nikdaheratik wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that it has next to nothing to do with technology. MIT was still reeling from the fall out with the Media Lab and Epstein. If it wasn't for that, they might have gotten by with a simple apology, but that wouldn't be enough at this point. There is also a history of controversial stuff related to his time at the FSF which meant that probably wouldn't settle for a simple apology either (not that RMS seemed willi…

I think without heavy proponents for free software, we would be in a worse place, especially technologically. Never met a software developer that wasn't dependent on free software to learn about the fundamentals of programming and system design. Calling him an ideologue in contrast to current pioneers in the software industry is a bit much, maybe he just had some hard principles. > wouldn't settle for a simple apolog…

>Never met a software developer that wasn't dependent on free software to learn about the fundamentals of programming and system design.

You probably have been in a bubble all this time. I grew up in former Soviet Union without an internet connection with whatever software I was able to buy around the corner. It wasn't Linux and GCC, it was Windows 9x, Delphi, then MSVC, and so on.

I think the first time I've used (any) FOSS application was after 4 or 5 years of using computers. I had the fundamentals more or less covered by then.

This only strengthens your point though.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#406

Post by tonyedgecombe » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:16 AM UTC

ukj wrote: post #377

journalctl wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t call “not actively espousing hateful or bigoted views” “self-censorship”. And if people are afraid to be hateful or creepy in public, I’d call that a win. You don’t get to proclaim the advantages of chattel slavery and be magically immune from everyone’s responses, and afterwards you can’t complain about self-censorship when you think twice about writing or saying something abhorrent.

I am afraid to be mis-interpreted as hateful or bigoted, and have to spend an inordinate amount of time/effort either choosing my words for my audience (which is really hard on the internet with such a broad audience) or correcting knee-jerk responses. The general over-reaction and constant jousting at windmills seems like a net loss to me. I am forced to exercise self-censorship.

Most of us don't have to do that because we aren't in the public eye. The worst you will get is a couple of downvotes.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#407

Post by dagw » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:16 AM UTC

ukj wrote: post #377

journalctl wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t call “not actively espousing hateful or bigoted views” “self-censorship”. And if people are afraid to be hateful or creepy in public, I’d call that a win. You don’t get to proclaim the advantages of chattel slavery and be magically immune from everyone’s responses, and afterwards you can’t complain about self-censorship when you think twice about writing or saying something abhorrent.

I am afraid to be mis-interpreted as hateful or bigoted, and have to spend an inordinate amount of time/effort either choosing my words for my audience (which is really hard on the internet with such a broad audience) or correcting knee-jerk responses. The general over-reaction and constant jousting at windmills seems like a net loss to me. I am forced to exercise self-censorship.

I am forced to exercise self-censorship.

I've found that a net good thing at least for myself. I used to be the dude who would blurt out whatever popped into my head and not care too much how it would be received by my audience, and sometimes even relish the fact that it was badly received.

By self-censoring and thinking through what I'm about to say and thinking about my audience before I open my mouth I find not only are social interactions easier and more pleasant, but I actually get my points across more consistently and clearly. People are then also more open to listening and don't always automatically get defensive. So ironically applying self-censorship has made it easier to make the points I actually want to make.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#408

Post by reirob » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:16 AM UTC

Donald wrote: post #2

Context: RMS waded into the MIT Epstein scandal https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21... > I’ve concluded from various examples of accusation inflation that it is absolutely wrong to use the term “sexual assault” in an accusation.

Thank you!

I had to scroll really deep in this page to understand some context. Because the link of this page goes just to say "Richard M. Stallman, founder and president of the Free Software Foundation, resigned as president and from its board of directors."

The discussion on this page expresses many personal opinions, many interpretations and a very small amount of facts.

I personally had to go somewhere else to understand what happened [1] (in German only), yes it is a strong opinion, but at least with references to back the claims up.

For me Richard Stallman is a hero. Through his work he made me discover a lot about IT and his life showed me that there are still people that are fighting for their cause without compromise and personal corruption and are ready to give a lot for the society. I never did and never will do as much as he did for society - and therefore I am thankful that there are people like him to be inspired.

[1]: https://blog.fefe.de/?ts=a37ef6b6

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#409

Post by nabla9 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:19 AM UTC

Scarblac wrote: post #391

nabla9 wrote: post #343

RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. RMS is anal about meanings of terms and their use. That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent. I find myself agreeing with RMS with most of the terminology and its use in this case. Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely s…

Well, he started the movement and got it very far, with the dominant OS using his foundation's license. Despite his limitations. There is no one in the movement who should have the authority to sack him. But, he resigned himself. This is moot.

FSF board of directors could have sacked him. RMS probably realized that he damages everything he has worked for if stays, or others convinced him.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#410

Post by astura » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:21 AM UTC

Funeralopolis wrote: post #263

Uhuhreally wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bollocks. Like Ricky Gervais said the other day actually you can say anything you like. People might not agree with you and that's fine.

If it was as simple as a disagreement, that would be fine. But it's not just simple disagreements anymore. It is costing people their livelihoods and futures because they're not toeing the ever shifting line.

When exactly was this mythical time when not toeing the line came without consequences?