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How is it like to be a dev in Iran
401–410 of 462 posts
Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran
#402I have seen a lot of this kind of stuff. Sanctions almost never work, and are almost always a bad idea.
Just like arming rebels against a government, the CIA found out, almost never results in anything good[1], then tried it again[2] and it again predictably resulted in something awful.
When it comes to sanctions, they have exacerbated situations that could have been solved with diplomacy. In the case of Iran, we already had negotiated an unprecedented deal with international inspectors having more access to its nuclear facilities and mining sites than any country in history. But that wasn’t enough. The deal was scrapped by Trump simply to erase Obama’s legacy[3], with no plan in place. It’s not just Trump, it’s the Republican leaders[4] and types of presidents the new Republican party tends to elect.[5]
Let’s turn to substance and back up the claim abou sanctions. We have seen this movie before. North Korea, cut off from world trade and under threat, was angling to get nuclear weapons. Clinton had negotiated a deal with Kin Jong Il, called the Agreed Framework[6], in exchange for step by step normalization of relations and lifting sanctions. It was already signed and began to be implemented!
Then the next administration entered office - Bush and the GOP called the deal expensive “appeasement” and scuttled it. Instead, they put more sanctions on North korea.
How did that work out? The people got united under the credible narrative that “they hate our way of life and they hate us” and North Korea got the bomb. With a little help from Ukrainians on the black market[7].
What’s worse is that with no agreement in place or relations with the US North Korea continued to act as a rogue state and gave nuclear technology to Syria to use against Israel. The Syrian nuclear reactor was covertly bombed by Israelis in a pre emptive strike[8] and no country (including Syria) spoke about this for months.
I could go down the line to show that diplomacy beats sanctions every time and that sanctions radicalize the population and make them support the very thing you want them to abandon.
I will jump straight to Godwin’s law. The Nazis came to power because of crushing sanctions on Germany after the Treaty of Versailles. Yes, France hated Germany and yes they wanted them to pay reparations for starting World War 1. But as a result, the German people were reduced to complete poverty and hyperinflation. What did they do? They had a nationalist fervor and pushed for leaders to “restore” Germany, armed themselves to the teeth, and then launched World War 2!
Imagine if there was no sanctions. Would the Germans elect Nazis if they were prosperous? Would North Koreans not develop a rootless cosmopolitan bourgiousie class if they were allowed to trade with the world? These things happen when sanctions are LIFTED. You want to help a country — lift sanctions on its people!
1. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/arming-rebels-has-...
2. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/world/middleeast/cia-syri...
3. https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-48978484
4. https://www.politico.com/story/2010/10/the-gops-no-compromis...
5. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2004/jan/12/usa.books
6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreed_Framework
7. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/14/543477518/north-koreas-secret...
Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran
#403Definition of terrorism according to Wikipedia: "Terrorism is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a religious or political aim." How economic sanctions and maximum pressure different from terrorism? Putting a lot of pressure and pain on ordinary people to achieve political goal, which in this case is surrender…
The answer to your question is in the text you quoted: intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror. Economic sanctions may be justified or unjustified, moral or immoral, but they are distinctly different from indiscriminate violence. Muddying the definitions of words really doesn't help anyone and indeed makes the discussion harder to have, as communication is only possible if both/all participa…
Some would say Taxation or Sanctions are a form of violence. If I do not adhere to your sanctions, what happens? If I do not pay your taxes, what happens?
Violence, condoned by a state or a group of states.
Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran
#404Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s punishing ordinary and innocent people of Iran for its government actions. It’s also hypocritical because you don’t punish Israelnfor it’s hunan rights violations, or Saudi Arabia, or Colombia. Even though those violations are far more severe.
The take away that I get from your post is "sanctions are immoral because they make people suffer - the only way they could be moral is if you make more people that I don't like suffer".
He said it was hypocritical, not immoral.
Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran
#405Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is. But you see, those hit hardest by sanctions are neither the cause of trouble nor anti western. Those are usually people like you and i, while the “elite” can smuggle in whatever they want and access whatever they want. Not only that but regular folk is weakened and cant stand a chance against the well fed government. No sanctions means greater exposure to our way of life and thus an easier path for grassroots…
There is a Soviet joke, on unrelated subject, but relevant. A father informs his son that the prices have gone up. The son asks: "Does that mean that you will drink less?" - "No son, that means that you will eat less."
the American analog of that would be "s__t rolls downhill". Every culture probably has a similar variant of this story.
Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran
#406Earlier quoted context omitted.
By definition the alternative is a worse deal. More sanctions won't necessarily produce a better deal. Iran can also have a military response or build a bomb.
> By definition the alternative is a worse deal. You need to let go of the illusion that there was any actual permanent "deal" in place at all. What was in place was a temporary stopgap at best, and Iran would exit from that stopgap with multiple avenues to building nuclear weapons within a year or two after the expiration of its provisions. If the goal was to prevent Iran from building nuclear weapons, the "deal" di…
I know what the deal was and I now who the Iranians are. I'm not defending them. The point is that was the deal that could be done and it had Iran voluntarily not building a bomb or enriching uranium. That was verified by an independent authority.
Now they have started enriching uranium again, so they are theoretically moving closer to building a bomb. To stop that without Iran's co-operation would require force, so if the West finds a bomb unacceptable the West is on a path to war.
For all your criticism of the deal, you haven't addressed the fundamental question of how this situation is better than the deal. Interpreting Iran's provocations as signs of progress towards negotiations is not convincing.
Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran
#407Earlier quoted context omitted.
Isn't the point of sanctions to cause frustration by restrictions?
It’s punishing ordinary and innocent people of Iran for its government actions. It’s also hypocritical because you don’t punish Israelnfor it’s hunan rights violations, or Saudi Arabia, or Colombia. Even though those violations are far more severe.
You just mentioned US allies, by the same logic the US should place sanctions on its own states and government due to their severe human rights abuses.
Sanctions are placed on enemies not allies
Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran
#408What is it like, not how is it like, you could say how was it like. but how is it just doesnt feel right
Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran
#409Earlier quoted context omitted.
Travelling in Iran is amazing experience - completely unspoiled from tourism, amazing history left and right, very warm and welcoming people, almost everybody speaks OK english (and most signs are dual farsi/english). For an experienced travelers / backpackers, this is one of the best places to experience these days. Btw one addition - we all know that US embassy was stormed and employees held hostage in 1979. It gav…
> very warm and welcoming people I'd second this, one of the friendliest country I've ever been to. No significant tourist industry yet so most people are not trying to sell you anything. I think it's a genuine wish to be friendly to travellers and especially so given they don't yet get many travellers. You're somewhat curtailed as a US traveller (not sure if that's still the case) but for anybody else, go. One tech…
Many people would probably use ‘portable’ software (in the Windows-world sense) in internet cafes, but I imagine most cafes forbid USB sticks or at least running your apps.
Even if a cafe uses some sort of sandbox environments that are wiped after each visitor, there's a danger that you'll bring in a ‘Scriptkiddie 2019’ exploit pack on the stick.
Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran
#410Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or... maybe developers should not play the games the Iran goverment want them to play and every effort should go towards throwing the current dictatorship not to stop using what they want us to stop using?
Oh sorry, how many times did you overthrow your government? Any tips?
My government doesn't need overthrowing yet, so no tips over here; there are some excellent books about it tho.