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France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

bbc.com

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Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#401

Post by FennNaten »

50656E6973 wrote: post #380
ElFitz wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. They need a sufficient internet infrastructure. People with access to it. People with money to spend. People with enough peace of mind to spend it on something else than absolute essentials. People with enough peace of mind and free time to leisurely waste on mostly useless websites. People to whom the physical goods of a great number of their advertisers can be delivered (infrastructure & post system). Eyeball…

Nah, the internet functions fine without the French government, and people are always looking to exploit the poor and helpless. >The differences in CPC between an affluent white male working in tech in San Francisco and a poor black woman selling peanuts on the street in Rufisque, Senegal (which isn't even the most extreme opposite one could think of) is proof of that. Why then are advertising giants like FB so eager…

So, you think the French networking infrastructure builds and maintains itself? Companies tend to only build infrastructures in very populated areas where it will quickly turn to profit. French government and collectivities have to incentivize, legalize and pay for them to properly cover the territory. (and to this day there are still a few zones where internet is only available through satellite).

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#402

Post by inlined »

ElFitz wrote: post #188
weberc2 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those large tech companies can make money in France because the french government provides all that is necessary for a free, fair and functioning market. How could Google make money in France if there was no french police force, education system, market regulation, court system, contract enforcement? Ignoring for a moment that this rationale can support any tax policy at all (including 100% tax rates)... This holds…

> This holds for all businesses, not just large tech companies. So why is the tax focused on the latter? Because they are those who could and had the resources (legal and financial teams) to avoid said taxes, until now, and they happily did so (ie billing through Luxembourg or Irish post boxes). Not that I'd condemn it. Countries and laws were just to slow in catching up. Most other businesses couldn't (and still can…

> Because they are those who could and had the resources (legal and financial teams) to avoid sales taxes.

Many countries have laws that effectively say that you must follow the spirit of the law. This seems analogous. See GAAR in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#403

Post by filoleg »

Hithredin wrote: post #318
filoleg wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, it is the lack of this tax that was preventing France from having their next Amazon. I am willing to bet significant amounts of money that even in 10 years France will have nothing even of remote resemblance of what Amazon was back in 2010, not even going to set the bar at what Amazon is today.

They are talking about physical shops. Which are also competitors of Amazon. And where does your assessment comes from? Just guess?

>They are talking about physical shops. Which are also competitors of Amazon.

Isn't that exactly what VAT tax is for?

>And where does your assessment comes from? Just guess?

An educated guess that I am strongly confident in, to the point of willing to bet most of my savings on it. And I am not the kind of person who would usually bet any money on anything at all. My most risky money bet so far is putting a portion of my paycheck in 401k.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#404

Post by Mirioron »

ripdog wrote: post #28
bko wrote: post #15

I never understood the logic behind taxing large internet businesses. The idea behind taxes is that you use some public resource and you pay for that service. You own a home in a neighborhood, you pay property tax that funds the schools. You drive a car, you pay gasoline tax that funds the streets. You hire workers locally, you pay the tax to pay back all the contributions public institutions made to adding the skill…

Those large tech companies can make money in France because the french government provides all that is necessary for a free, fair and functioning market. How could Google make money in France if there was no french police force, education system, market regulation, court system, contract enforcement? All money made on the white market in any country is facilitated by that government, and taxes are paid on all profits…

It's not free and fair if a tax is written to target 30 companies, is it?

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#405

Post by leppr »

smolder wrote: post #376
leppr wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you believe paying more taxes somehow gives the taxpayers more control over their country ? Giving away more money doesn't mean you have more control over how said money is used. The most direct consequence actually goes in the other direction, you have now less agency (=money). There's no obvious mechanism that makes a monopoly (=government) more accountable the more money it's given.

I don't believe taxes give me more control. What I believe is that taxes aren't inherently bad and that we should express more concern over where the money goes and what economic effects it has, not paint all taxation as bad. Effective democracies do have an explicit mechanism to make government accountable: votes on issues (like where taxes are gathered and how they're spent) and representation. Through an effective…

There's very little democracy in France as well. Corporate lobbying might not be as prevalent (simply because they don't have as many humongous corporations), but it's still the same old self-serving oligarchy story.

If we really want to compare, American-style plutocracy might actually be more democratic, because it's easier for a diverse array of citizen to become rich, than it is for French citizens to join the elite club from ENA [1] and co.

[1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47991257

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#406

Post by Mirioron »

Sharlin wrote: post #288
colpabar wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think that a company might just raise their prices to pay for those taxes?

Which makes local businesses better able to compete. Win-win.

Win-win, until you realize that this action is pretty much the opening shot of a trade war, precisely because it helps local businesses. Imagine if the US responded in kind and tailored some new rules that targeted European businesses in US markets with similar taxation.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#407

Post by ticmasta »

scottlocklin wrote: post #364
colpabar wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but assume they somehow pass the tax 100% onto the customer. So now French citizens are the ones paying for the "right to the free market" of their own country. Does that seem fair?

Seems fine to me. Maybe it will make local businesses more competitive with Bezos airdropping junk from 747s powered with dolphin oil.

Yes, because all those local businesses are selling nothing but artisanal, locally-sourced, organic goodness; nobody other than Amazon imports goods from China.

And I think you're mixing your enviro-zealot metaphors; it's whale oil and dolphin tuna.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#408

Post by simion314 »

buboard wrote: post #300
simion314 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would they exclude US companies doing business in US?

obviously yes. we are in a trade war

This makes no sense, France is not excluding french companies. there is no war , they probably need more money so they found some group to tax, in Romania the government is also in big need of money so they put a tax on telecom companies, should the UK queen get upset now if a UK telecom company that makes business here is taxed more? I mean there are no exceptions or protectionism involved but some politicians can let an opportunity to spread their agenda.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#409

Post by effie »

simplecomplex wrote: post #49

Instead of taxing companies because it’s an easy method to steal money, maybe France should focus on enabling their people to create a company like Amazon or Facebook and actually generate wealth instead of taking it?

Why wouldn't they do both? "Stealing" money via taxation is a legal and logical way to get some money to support their other operations, perhaps even "enabling their people".

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#410

Post by AJ007 »

eurg wrote: post #276
hmartiniano wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is actually a good idea: increase tax on revenues for companies using tax-evasion schemes until it is no longuer profitable for them to continue doing so. Also, consider the fact that tax evasion is a crime in most countries and that this is a very bland measure when compared to what these companies (and their executives) really reserve.

increasing taxes makes tax-reduction-strategies _more_ profitable, not less also, tax-evasion and tax-reduction are two different things, equating them is an argument in bad faith

Tax reduction strategies can include things like paying employees higher wages. Turnover taxes are inane because profit margins across vary widely across different industries.
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