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Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

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Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#401

Post by TarpitCarnivore »

nailer wrote: post #397
TarpitCarnivore wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not disputing the moments before and during. There is no doubt the events going on were a powder keg of problems waiting to tip off. However my comment was about how that actual scene can be viewed differently by people, and is exactly what is happening. This is not a matter of scientific facts being disputed, it's an interpretation of a real life event that took place. Too many people, the scene of 30-40 boys y…

> I am not disputing the moments before and during. You mentioned a fact was a matter of people interpreting a narrative. "While you say the narrative is wrong, many feel the narrative was right." That is not how facts work. > There is no doubt the events going on were a powder keg of problems waiting to tip off. Nobody is discussing whether there were "many problems". We are debating whether children surrounded and…

> You mentioned a fact was a matter of people interpreting a narrative. "While you say the narrative is wrong, many feel the narrative was right." That is not how facts work

I'm speaking to how some watched videos and felt they agreed with WaPo on the matter. There is no 'fact' to this story beyond an interpretation of events. This isn't a situation of clear cut and dry (like the recent released footage of the Chicago officer). It's people reacting to a situation and how it's making them feel.

> We are debating whether children surrounded and intimidated an old man as reported by the Washington Post. We are doing so because WaPo was cited as an example of 'real news'. > That did not happen. WaPo was wrong.

Your statements are perfectly proving my point. To people that scene and moment gave them a sense of intimidation. You cannot tell them their feelings and interpretation of the situation is wrong. If I walk up to you and stand in your face, and you tell me that it made you feel intimidated I don't have the right to go "Stop, you're wrong".

> You keep discussing unrelated issues without specifically answering whether you believe this happened or did not happen

Im trying to explain to you why that particular situation is not something you can clearly point to as fake news. I'm trying to paint a larger picture to the whole matter and why many took issue with it.

Since you're so hung up on the matter, yes to me I viewed the way those kids acted as intimidating and inappropriate. If I saw that many kids in a group, wearing those hats, and chanting the way they did I would not want to be near it.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#402

Post by ramsss »

dexen wrote: post #215
SubuSS wrote: post #78

The news as a written medium is losing traction: youtube rules the next generation (anecdotally from what I see with my daughter & friends). I wouldn't mind paying youtube premium channel if I can get a truly centrist opinion pieces, factual reporting and random excerpts into topics like science/philosophy/comedy/culture. Sadly afaic again, most of the 'online' content is way too left (or the worse option: way too ri…

Tim Pool. He's got both a news channel ( https://www.youtube.com/user/Timcasts/videos ) and an Op-Ed channel ( https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe02lGcO-ahAURWuxAJnjdA ).

lmao, your brain must be irreparably damaged if you think Tim Pool is an example of fair unbiased journalism.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#403

Post by tivert »

GarrisonPrime wrote: post #262
tivert wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A version of this op-ed appears in print on June 20, 2003, on Page A00023 of the National edition You know what an op-ed piece is, right? If you don't, here's a definition: > An op-ed, short for "opposite the editorial page" or "opinion editorial", is a written prose piece typically published by a newspaper or magazine which expresses the opinion of an author usually not affiliated with the publication's editorial…

The fact that they published it (or that they didn't publish something) is hard proof of endorsement. If you think it isn't, I can only suggest you have a bizarre concept of reality.

> The fact that they published it (or that they didn't publish something) is hard proof of endorsement.

No, not at all. It's only proof that it's a point of view they thought their readers should know about.

Here's a contemporaneous editorial that expresses a very different view: https://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/01/opinion/the-bioweapons-en.... You can find all kinds of contradictory opinions in the NYT op-ed section, so it'd be nonsense to say the NYT endorses the view of every one (or any particular one) it publishes.

> If you think it isn't, I can only suggest you have a bizarre concept of reality.

I'd suggest your concept of reality is more bizarre than mine.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#404

Post by moorhosj »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #366
moorhosj wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a quick slight-of-hand in this comment. You start off talking about how gun violence, as a whole, is at low historic levels. Then, you go on to talk specifically about school shootings. As far as I can tell, school shootings are at historically high levels. It seems legitimate to report on that considering schools are places that parents send their kids every day and have historically viewed them as safe. Ad…

>As far as I can tell, school shootings are at historically high levels. And you are also wrong about that. [0] My comment wasn’t about number of school shooting - but narrative. You don’t hear about them unless they fall into a given narrative. You don’t question what you are seeing at all, just happily accept it because it fits your bias. [0] https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/02/26/schools-are-still-o...

Ah yes, more slight of hand. In this instance, you have moved the goalposts to "mass" school shootings, only counting instances where 4 or more people were killed/injured. This list also doesn't seem to include shootings that took place at colleges, which are also schools (Virginia Tech, Northern Illinois and Umpqua come to mind). It almost like you don't question your source at all and just happily accepted it because it fits your bias.

Even if we just focus on K-12, you could download this [1] data from US Naval Postgraduate School and run a trend line all the way back to 1970.

[1] https://www.chds.us/ssdb/number-killed-by-year/

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#405

Post by mscasts »

warp_factor wrote: post #343
mscasts wrote: post #194

Why would I pay for a media that humiliates me, writes biased articles and tells me that I am a bad person because my political views differ from theirs? I am actually kind of glad that the media landscape is changing, because they way it has been has been terrifying. I'm not american, so I can't speak for new york times but the layoffs in the shit-media that was buzzfeed and others like it is just good news. I'd rat…

The shaming of half of the country by some of the mainstream medias such as the NYT is definitely part of the reason why they are losing it in the long term. I politically mostly agree with the NYT, but I can't stand their morale high ground with the continuous shaming of the other side of the aisle.

It's just not the NYT, really. It is most of the media companies. I don't live in the US but here it's even worse because it's all one-sided. At least you guys have options.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#406

Post by indigochill »

TarpitCarnivore wrote: post #290
indigochill wrote: post #248

Another thing that's sort of been a pebble in the shoe of both journalism and education (I mean, at some level they -should- be doing similar things, right?) is that they don't necessarily make it easy for readers to find original sources. A counterexample: if I want to know about the origins of our understanding of geometry, Euclid's Elements is a pretty solid place to start. Or Newton's Principia for physics. Now l…

> But this raises a deeper question: is your Average Joe Citizen (who is not an engineer, but maybe a barista, salesman, banker, etc) equipped to have an opinion about climate change at all? This comes off pretty condescending. What makes an (assuming computer) engineer any more capable of reading & comprehending reports than a barista or banker?

You're right. I would edit my post since it's incorrect to imply an engineer would be any more capable in the example I chose. But apparently I can't any more.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#407

Post by bargl »

GarrisonPrime wrote: post #249
bargl wrote: post #32

I want a service where I can subscribe to journalists not news papers. I want to know that they are getting a portion of my subscription and being successful. I want 0 advertising in this news paper. Where do I get it? Is this something we need to create? I'd love a fact check o meter on each journalist as well, but I think that'd be very open to bias, so I don't know how that'd happen. Anyway, I don't subscribe to n…

That sounds like your feed would become a series of blogs by the same authors. Perhaps if kept under the thumb of a responsible organization and editor that could work, but in my experience whenever a respected reporter goes off to create their own blog their writing tends to devolve into fringe posts crafted just to please their niche audience.

You are correct. I think that introducing more silo's into a system would be a bad idea.

I was thinking about this last night and I think it'd be interesting to see authors actually have to cite another post that has a good strong counter argument to theirs and point out places where they disagree. It probably wouldn't work on a systemic approach but might work if an individual with this sort of temperament did it.

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#408

Post by Faark »

lightbyte wrote: post #367
50656E6973 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a "strawman". You see this in fake wrestling: a designedly weak contender is set up to get owned by the audience's favorite protagonist

In this case climate change denial and conspiracy theories are a mainstream opposition. >"The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive." -President of the United States https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/26589529219124838...

Here he is ridiculing climate change as of last week, in case someone wants a more recent example (he missed the 15th anniversary of The Day After Tomorrow by a few months)

> "[..Its cold right now..] What the hell is going on with Global Waming? Please come back fast, we need you!" -Leader and representative of the United States

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/10900742540104048...

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#409

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

OJFord wrote: post #398
SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That list of school shootings includes someone firing a gun near a school, and someone shooting a cat a 3am, as well as an officer discharging his gun negligently. Nice list, not hyperbolic at all. You’ll be happy to know there are less school shootings today than the 90s. [0] As opposed to other countries, where guns are available they are used... shocker! The fact is that where guns are in the USA, our rural areas…

> That list of school shootings includes someone firing a gun near a school, and someone shooting a cat a 3am, as well as an officer discharging his gun negligently. Nice list, not hyperbolic at all. All of those things would make national news if they occurred in the UK.

Cool story! When we're talking about UK that will be worth bringing up.

In the UK you go to jail for defending yourself [0,1,2]. The UK police themselves tell you the only legal tool for self-defense is a rape alarm [3].

If you think it's good the UK government has made the choice for people on how best to defend themselves, that's cool. I understand how if you've grown up with that culture, it's probably difficult to understand the freedom of choice we have in the USA.

[0] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1461346/Five-years-i...

[1] https://metro.co.uk/2017/12/11/pensioner-jailed-shooting-bur...

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-43639183

[3] https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q589.htm

Re: Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing

#410

Post by tivert »

licebmi__at__ wrote: post #138
tivert wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure about anyone else but every time I read an article about something I'm actually an expert in or few times about myself or a company I've worked for I see at least a handful of factual errors and/or exaggerations that aren't real. News is only the first rough draft of history [1] [2]. Newspapers are definitely not perfect, and they definitely make errors, but there's no better way to get such a breadth of t…

Not really, I still find lots of errors on recounts of past events. Aside from a few articles, that almost always come from rare good journalists, I don't really see any research on most news media, not for recent events, nor for historical accounts.

> Not really, I still find lots of errors on recounts of past events. Aside from a few articles, that almost always come from rare good journalists, I don't really see any research on most news media, not for recent events, nor for historical accounts.

You're looking in the wrong place. You'll find the first rough draft of history in a newspaper, you'll find the final draft in a book (or at least the most polished draft).

I often find lots of bugs in software that's been rushed out the door to fill and urgent need, it's the name with newspapers.

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