Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#401

Post by Kim_Bruning » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:40 PM UTC

lgeorget wrote: post #244

Shivetya wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15 an hour will push a lot of people out of being employable. There is a greater tolerance for whom you will accept at current wage points. The other effect of a much higher starting wage is you will have people enter the market who did not think the wage was worth their time. The people who cannot be relied on to show up on schedule, quit and want to come back, have some issues in their credit or criminal backgroun…

> $15 an hour will push a lot of people out of being employable. On the other hand, isn't it illogical in a free market economy that wages do not increase at a rate at least equal to the inflation? How do you keep the economy running if people have less and less purchase power as time goes by? (These are genuine questions, I'm not an economist at all.)

How do you keep the economy running as purchase power goes down? Traditionally, I don't think you can.

Henry Ford was one of the people to point this out; in the general case, you need to pay your workers enough (and keep prices low enough) that they can afford your products; else who can? (other threads have quoted him as well )

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#402

Post by briandear » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

meko wrote: post #302

pkulak wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're willing to shame a company for behavior you don't like, I think you should be prepared to give praise when they do exactly what you just asked for. When you constantly move the goal posts just so that you never have to abandon your righteous anger for even one day, what kind of incentive does that give companies to change their behavior?

Companies don't really deserve praise, practically ever because their motives are ultimately guided by profits. They only act in the interest of revenue. Sometimes those interests align with the employees, but let's not pretend this isn't self preservation on amazon's behalf.

Employees are driven by their own self-interest, so we ought not praise their efforts either right?

There is no such thing as altruism: everyone has their agenda.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#403

Post by golergka » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:42 PM UTC

prolikewh0a wrote: post #232

zacharytelschow wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> turning your employees into welfare-dependent wage-slaves I wasn't aware staying with a particular employer was compulsory.

You're out of touch with the job market and reality itself. It's not easy for these people to just "get a new job". They get paid minimum wage and are probably living paycheck to paycheck. If these people just "move jobs", they're out a paycheck for weeks and may lose their car, their home, not be able to eat, etc.

> It's not easy > may lose their car, their home, not be able to eat, etc.

That's unfortunate. But that's also not what compulsory is.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#404

Post by Klathmon » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:42 PM UTC

irishcoffee wrote: post #364

Klathmon wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be able to give up your paycheck, knowing that if you don't have another by next week you would literally be homeless? With no savings, no healthcare, no "fallback", no help, nothing. Sit down, and really decide if you would be able to quit your fulltime job that is giving you about $100 a week after taxes, and have to decide how to make that $100 last paycheck last until you find another job? Maybe you'll…

> Would you be able to give up your paycheck, knowing that if you don't have another by next week you would literally be homeless? Nope. This idea gets bandied about all the time. How is missing a paycheck for 1 week going to result in homelessness?

Ya know what, you are right. I should remove that part of my comment, because while it's possible to find situations that you could be a week away from losing your house or apartment, it's not as likely as the situations of:

* having to ration your food out, or just go hungry. After all, they say humans can go something like a week without food right? You can handle that.

* not being able to travel because you don't have money to pay for gas or any other kind of transportation. And it's not like you have the time to walk to the store between your 2 jobs since it's almost 30 minutes away walking, which is better than the bank which can be an hour away. And that's assuming the hours of operation let you go outside of your day or night job.

* losing your phone plan, which cuts you off from the internet and the world in a lot of ways, which in turn makes it much more expensive to apply for jobs (you have to go to a local library for internet, because all applications require online access now), manage what little money you have (no online banking, no paying bills online, no ability to cash checks from your phone, now you are going into the bank), and more.

* resorting to theft to get enough money to pay for the above things, which then does risk you getting caught and losing everything.

And every day you don't pay your rent or your bills brings you one day closer to being kicked out, and if you do get kicked out it's all over, because without a few thousand dollars and a lot of luck you aren't ever going to get another apartment, and will have to resort to living in shitty motels which is much more expensive.

So yeah, you most likely won't lose your house or apartment from one missed payment, but you can absolutely lose your ability to get to any job, which means that you then lose all of your income, which means that you are now not just missing one month's rent, but the next few as well, and you can't move at that point because nobody will rent out a place to someone that doesn't pay their bills. Meanwhile you are getting those fun yellow pieces of paper taped to your door telling you just how deep in the hole you are, and how long you have to fix everything before it's really over.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#405

Post by VLM » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:43 PM UTC

zacharytelschow wrote: post #132

ashelmire wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think turning your employees into welfare-dependent wage-slaves is far worse than unprofessional or bullying, but I guess that's just me and most decent people. CEOs of large public companies have to take public heat, by name, quite often. It's a huge part of their job; otherwise they'd be COOs.

> turning your employees into welfare-dependent wage-slaves I wasn't aware staying with a particular employer was compulsory.

Well, this is a nation that has a religious belief that merely educating people magically creates jobs requiring higher ed, so its not surprising our economy is also based on a magical belief that if people need jobs that are not welfare dependent wage slave tier, then that need, in and of itself, will magically create the those better jobs. Posting stuff like that on twitter is just like prayer, surely it'll be answered eventually.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#406

Post by refurb » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #287

kodablah wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I guess that's one way to put a positive spin on unemployment.

It's putting a positive spin on paying people a living wage. Unemployment goes up, support the unemployed with safety nets and raising taxes. The problem is not the cost; the money exists in the economic system, clearly. It's simply an allocation issue. But pessimists can keep carrying on with "the sky is falling" while progressive economic policies continue to march forward, bringing the US to parity with the living…

while progressive economic policies continue to march forward

March forward? If anything there has been a dismantling of "progressive" economic policies over the last few decades. To the benefit of the economy.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#407

Post by Notorious_BLT » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

swebs wrote: post #17

>In addition, the company also pledges its public policy team will lobby for an increase to the federal minimum wage from $7.25 — it doesn’t identify a specific wage that it’s targeting, but instead says, “We believe $7.25 is too low. We would look to Congress to decide the parameters of a new, higher federal minimum wage.” I'm going to take a wild guess and assume it will be $15/hour. That way they'll get to look pr…

If Amazon should be paying $15/hour, why should other companies not also pay that much? They are literally doing exactly what was asked of them. Do you not want the same for employees of other companies?

I can understand that its fair to be cynical of their motivations, but they are doing exactly what people have been demanding of them.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#408

Post by exolymph » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:45 PM UTC

gowld wrote: post #366

mbesto wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the process, they're actually paying real people more money Except the OP was talking specifically about the company's plan to lobby. Yes, they're actually paying people more money, but if everyone has that same amount of money then you get wage push inflation. Then everyone loses. This is also why minimum wage discussions always spiral out of control...there really is no good long term solution for setting mini…

That's a radical theory; can you give a more detailed explanation? Mainstream economists and political theorists believe that raising minimum wage reduces wealth inequality which creates economic and political stability, which reduces the risk of things like crime, Great Depression, and violent revolution. Even if minimum wage growth hits its practical max and creates inflation, (1) that's easy enough to detect and c…

> Mainstream economists and political theorists believe that raising minimum wage reduces wealth inequality which creates economic and political stability

There is nowhere near the level of consensus on this issue that you're implying.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#409

Post by stephengillie » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

swebs wrote: post #17

>In addition, the company also pledges its public policy team will lobby for an increase to the federal minimum wage from $7.25 — it doesn’t identify a specific wage that it’s targeting, but instead says, “We believe $7.25 is too low. We would look to Congress to decide the parameters of a new, higher federal minimum wage.” I'm going to take a wild guess and assume it will be $15/hour. That way they'll get to look pr…

Amazon knows most of that $15/hour will be paid into Amazon - regardless of employer - as they have 51% of American commerce. They're turning America into a huge company town.

Re: Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees

#410

Post by bandrami » Tue, Oct 02, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

xtian wrote: post #356

mikybee93 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly. You could also say that humans don't really deserve praise since our motives are ultimately guided by our self interest. We only do things to make ourselves feel good, or make ourselves look better. I think that companies have many paths towards self preservation, and that choosing the paths that lead to a better world deserve praise regardless of motive.

> You could also say that humans don't really deserve praise since our motives are ultimately guided by our self interest You could say that and you would be right. Why should anyone praise you if your underlying motivations are self-centered? You seem to be asserting that this is fundamental human nature, however, which is a belief which has been refuted plenty of times throughout history.

Why shouldn't self-interested action be praiseworthy?