Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier • Hacker News Board

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#401

Post by lisper » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 4:05 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #395

lisper wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This seems to me to be a clearly incorrect (and self-contradictory) claim. I guess that means I was able to pull the wool over the eyes of all five members of my thesis committee because none of them thought so. > It entirely depends on your definition of failure. Well, yeah, of course. So? There is some subset of states of the world that you label "failure". The guarantee is not that the system never enters one of…

> The guarantee is not that the system never enters one of those states, the guarantee is that if the system enters one of those states it never (well, so extremely rarely that it's "never" for all practical purposes) fails to recognize that it has done so. Why do you find that so implausible? Stated so, that is plausible. However, "it is possible to engineer a system that never fails to detect that it has failed" is…

> Stated so, that is plausible. However, "it is possible to engineer a system that never fails to detect that it has failed" is not

They seem the same to me. In fact, in 27 years you are the first person to voice this concern.

> I claim that any subset of states which is amenable to this level of detectability will exclude some other states that any normal person would also consider to be "failure".

Could be, but that would be a publishable result. So... publish it and then we can discuss.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#402

Post by readhn » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 4:50 AM UTC

Why is autopilot feature still allowed to exist? It should be disabled until further improvements. This blows my mind.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#403

Post by fernandotakai » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 4:54 AM UTC

henrikeh wrote: post #290

dwild wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by reckless early adopters. That's a pretty important point. We aren't going to ban alcohol are we? Aren't we even trying to allow marijuana consumption? Both of theses put you in dangerous situation on the road, yet we aren't talking about blocking their consumption. It still the responsibility of the adopters, just like it's the responsibility of the drinkers. At least doing it safely actually improve security in…

Drinking and driving is however banned. At what cost do we need the supposed improved performance of self-driving cars?

if you crash while under a substance, you not only get arrested but you can lose your license and get huge fines.

if you crash while on autopilot, does the same happens?

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#404

Post by 51Cards » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 4:54 AM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #43

fma wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have always wondered why each company is developing their own software and algorithms... How will NTSB certify the software? Or will they? I mean, they certify car safety features now through crash tests, roll over tests, etc... Why is Tesla, or anyone manufacturer, allowed to modify vehicle safety features through OTA updates without recertification? I realize it adds more regulation...and I'm sure there can be a…

Patents and the ability to earn money by licensing out technology. That, or hoping they are the best and get more customers through it - I think that's currently the case for Tesla, selling the only commercially available semi-autonomously driving car ATM.

Cadillac has a similar system out in production.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#405

Post by m3kw9 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 4:58 AM UTC

Man I cannot imagine how they will debug the issue in the algorithm and how they will re train it to get that barrier mistake out

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#406

Post by readhn » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:02 AM UTC

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #248

lisper wrote: post #122

Here is my armchair diagnosis: right before the car veers towards the barrier it drives through a stretch of road where the only visible lane marker is on the left. Then the right lane marker comes into view at about the point where the lane starts to widen out for the lane split. The lines that will become the right and left lane markers of the split left and right lanes respectively are right next to the van in fro…

I dubbed this property "cognizant failure" I like that term. When I was involved in the medical instrumentation field, we had a similar concern: it was possible for an instrument to produce a measurement, e.g., the concentration of HIV in blood serum, that was completely incorrect, but plausible since it's within the expected clinical range. This is the worst-case scenario: a result that is wrong, but looks OK. This…

"here's the HIV level, but the incubation temperature went slightly out of range when I was processing it, so use caution interpreting it."

there is no "slightly out of range". Its either in the range or outside. Valid or invalid, when it comes to critical tests like these.

if temperature deviation is outside of acceptable deviation range then thats a system fault and result should have been considered invalid.

Back in the days there was much less regulatory oversight and products like that could slip through the cracks, Resulting to deaths, missed diagnosis etc etc.

The same with Teslas AP: its either 100% confident in the situation or not. If the car is not confident in whats happening - it should shut down. If that happens too often then the AP feature should be removed / completely disabled.

How many more people have to get into accidents? I know, if Musk's mom (knock on wood) was a victim of this feature then things would be taken more seriously.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#407

Post by kwhitefoot » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:06 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #132

GoToRO wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not usable anywhere. What if I draw a fake line on the road? will it follow it? what if you have wet paint and another vehicle smudges it diagonally to the lane?

I've seen construction crews paint new lines on the road e.g. to reroute traffic due to one lane being closed for expansion. A human driver can easily tell the difference between the fresh new line they should follow and the worn out old one. Can a Tesla?

> Can a Tesla?

My 2015 S 70D can't but then again the problem only arises if I ignore the road works signs and continue driving on autosteer in circumstances where the UI has clearly told you not to.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#408

Post by kwhitefoot » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:09 AM UTC

chrisper wrote: post #60

giarc wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't new, but what if it snows? I live in Calgary and snow covers our roads for about 30-40% of the year.

Your question would be answered if they would call it driving assist and not auto pilot. Then you'd understand that you would not turn it on in snow. Just like Cruise control.

If my 2015 S 70D can't see enough to tell that there is a lane then it won't allow you to turn on autosteer. Generally if the road is covered in snow then it won't turn on, also it will turn off if the lane markings disappear.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#409

Post by kwhitefoot » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:12 AM UTC

m4x wrote: post #326

I don't understand why people use Autopilot, or why Tesla has released it. To use it safely and according to Tesla's instructions, you have to remain 100% vigilant at all times - so you might as well just drive yourself. And if you fail to remain vigilant, which is likely since you are sitting passively in the drivers seat, you might kill somebody. Where's the upside? Why on Earth would I want to use such a product?

> Where's the upside? Why on Earth would I want to use such a product?

I use it because it makes my driving less stressful. The car and I work together which means I don't have to work so hard to keep to the speed limit, to keep a sensible distance from the car in front and stay in lane.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#410

Post by sjwright » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:12 AM UTC

guidedlight wrote: post #384

ricardobeat wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been mentioned a lot of times lately (the auto-braking). When you think about it, you realize there are a million moments during normal driving where you have an obstacle ahead. Other cars, lane dividers like these that you might _have_ to pass by closely, or at least will have your car pointed at it for a few seconds, making tight curves on a walled road, high curbs, buildings that are on the edge of the ro…

My understanding is that auto-braking during autonomous driving doesn’t normally react to stationary objects like barriers. Otherwise it would brake for things like cardboard boxes, plastic bags, and other debris that often makes its way onto the road. But rather, autonomous driving AI puts a lot of trust into its lane guidance.

In what world would you not want your car to brake for a cardboard box? You don’t know what is inside. It could be empty, or could be full of nails. Or a cat.

Regardless, it should be trivial have a different behavior for a moving object that enters the road versus a rigid object that has not been observed moving.