James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#401

Post by ddlsmurf » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:51 PM UTC

dopamean wrote: post #365

ddlsmurf wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So guilty by association ? That's healthy... What's truly sad about this is that he is the first I've heard of to propose actually fair measures we could take to promote gender diversity in IT, such as using more socially involved methods such as pair programming. Instead we get positive discrimination. This depiction by tech crunch is an insult to reporting, if you read/listen to the primary source, there is no hate…

It's not just "association" as you put it. r/the_donald was singing is his praises. They're a pretty toxic bunch and I've found that I have very little in common with many of them (mostly because I find their views to be ). So when they're the only people I see coming to someone's defense I assume that person said or did something pretty bad. Mike Cernovich is the same way. He's looking to push a narrative to further…

You give too much power to these toxic groups, I recommend just ignoring them completely. The alternative is basically giving them the ability to censor what you read, litmus or not, seems unwise. I know nothing of Cernovich sorry. It certainly served you poorly here. His infamous memo is the best, most scientifically literate proposal towards more diversity in IT, its portrayal is truly discouraging.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#402

Post by praestigiare » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:51 PM UTC

ng12 wrote: post #382

praestigiare wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claim that there is a pattern of bad diversity hires, but your anecdotes are just as easily explained by confirmation bias: You see an incompetent male engineer, and you write him off as an idiot and forget him. You see an incompetent woman, and she becomes evidence that there is a problem with diversity programs. You remember evidence that supports your narrative. Obviously my statement is not evidence either. I…

> you write him off as an idiot and forget him Not really. I have a lot of faith in our engineering staff so I wonder how he got hired and how he avoids getting fired. The uncomfortable truth is that if he was an employee that "looked good" I would know the answer to those questions.

As I said before, my response is not data, I know that. But what you just wrote is exactly how confirmation bias works: If he fit your narrative, he would confirm your narrative. That is why these discussions need to be about data, and not "what everyone sees and no one talks about."

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#403

Post by vowelless » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

ryguytilidie wrote: post #324

vowelless wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. If the memo wasn't enough, him immediately going to right wing YouTubers like Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson, Mike cernovich, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, etc. is suspicious. [1] Generally I wouldn't have minded if he went to right wing outlets, as long as he had also gone to left wing outlets. I was willing to listen to his reasoning. But it became clear after the memo came out that he didn…

Wait, Joe Rogan is considered a right wing youtuber? I listen to his show all the time and I'm a pretty big liberal and while he sometimes does the whole "everyone is sooooo PC now" thing, he also talks negatively about Trump, the GOP and right wing politics constantly. I also listened to the James Damore episode, and while I thought James did a good job of making his point and Joe did an AWESOME job of interviewing…

As I mentioned, I don't disparage "right wing". I actually enjoy Joe Rogans podcast, and also Dave Rubin and Jordan Peterson. All three of them are solidly classical liberal, which is probably right of center today (individualism vs. collectivism, equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome, etc). But AFAIK, damore never came to the young Turks, Chapo trap house, which are leftist podcasts. I could be wrong.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#404

Post by nautilus12 » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

dmode wrote: post #176

Why would a "white male conservative" sue a corporation when the conservative platform believes that in a free market corporations should be allowed to discriminate as they please ? I have heard Ron Paul (ok, a libertarian) state numerous times how he doesn't support civil rights, because the public will stop visiting those businesses who engage in discriminatory behavior. Shouldn't James Damore just let the free mar…

Because fighting fire with fire seems to be the only tactic successful in these contexts. Its about proving the hypocrisy of practicing discrimination against those you self deem (without any due process) to be discriminatory. Discrimination, like hate only begets more discrimination.

As far as the second point, the free markets no longer operate that way, marketing has emerged as a white washing effect for any ill a company can get themselves into, as long as they spend enough on marketing they can work their way out of it on top.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#405

Post by jgh » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #378

criddell wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume that any apology would be backed up by some king of statement about what he has learned since the memo. At the very least he should have learned how important soft skills are and that his idea of what makes a good engineer was woefully incomplete. If he hasn't learned anything, then why would anybody hire the guy?

But out of the things he could have learned, which ones would make for a good public apology? If he goes public, and says - "I honestly apologize for my mistake, I never realized you people could so violently overreact to what's essentially politely expressed feasibility comment backed by scientific consensus, and that in the process you'll so maliciously misrepresent me and lie about my intentions and the contents o…

That's not an apology, that's being a passive-aggressive nerd.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#406

Post by mbrumlow » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

lukev wrote: post #230

imartin2k wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" It's because he's just another brogrammer...." After having read two lengthy pieces about him and his case, I think you are showing a lack of empathy and willingness to put yourself into some other person's shoes. You might disagree with his actions and world view. But you should maybe not be so quick with your labeling. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/16/james-dam... http://quillette.com/2018/01/05…

What am I supposed to have empathy for? That he was paid a six figure salary, part of which required him to sit through a few hours of sensitivity training? And if we're worried about empathy, why don't we stop and think for a while about the people affected negatively by his memo? Or do you mean the autism excuse (which is from the Guardian journalist, btw, not Damore himself?) I know lots of people on the autism sp…

When you read something you don't agree with it is your choice to decide how it affects you. So please don't start this nonsense that words make a unsafe environment.

That being said nobody had a negative reaction until vox leaked it. It had been available for months.

I will also note it seemed to be those who have more tweets than minutes they have been alive that got the most upset about this memo.

I was really disappointed in the response by Google engineers. To this day I have yet to see a proper rebuttal that did not go out of it's way to misrepresent the original memo.

That is what makes me sad. That to this day people still quote things that were not in or even eluded to in the paper.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#407

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

praestigiare wrote: post #375

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

You claim that there is a pattern of bad diversity hires, but your anecdotes are just as easily explained by confirmation bias: You see an incompetent male engineer, and you write him off as an idiot and forget him. You see an incompetent woman, and she becomes evidence that there is a problem with diversity programs. You remember evidence that supports your narrative. Obviously my statement is not evidence either. I…

[deleted]

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#408

Post by paulcole » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #87

He doesn't have a choice really. With the PR mess he got himself into, no big company will ever hire him. Imagine the possible headlines "Microsoft hires the James Damore, the male supremacy advocate fired from Google". Nope, regardless the technical skill or his actual personality, his public image is forever ruined. So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organization…

> due to a stupid political game he didn't even realize he was playing

If he didn't know exactly what he was doing he deserves whatever happens to him for being so oblivious to the world around him.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#409

Post by dang » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

ironjunkie wrote: post #145

threeseed wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with the news and everything to do with what Damore did. He was fired for a reason.

Sure, and the politically correct system is never wrong. Continue to live in your utopia

Name-calling and personal attacks will get you banned here. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and clean up your act. Here's a principle to help: If you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment until you do.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#410

Post by ddlsmurf » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #356

ddlsmurf wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So guilty by association ? That's healthy... What's truly sad about this is that he is the first I've heard of to propose actually fair measures we could take to promote gender diversity in IT, such as using more socially involved methods such as pair programming. Instead we get positive discrimination. This depiction by tech crunch is an insult to reporting, if you read/listen to the primary source, there is no hate…

Yeah, even if you look at the comments here damning Damore, it's obvious most commenters didn't bother to read - hell, to even skim the primary source. The memo was as polite scientificly-backed and clearly written as it was reasonably possible without turning it into an academic publication. The only mistake he made (while at Google; I was really surprised by the on-line crowd that he found itself with after being e…

I was kind of hoping more of hacker news though =/ This does not bode well...