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Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#401

Post by WheelsAtLarge »

Growing pains. Think about it, it's been less than ten years since bitcoin was created. Give it time. The code will change and it will be able to scale. We now have multi-millionaires that have a very strong incentive to make sure it never fails. 20 years from now the bitcoin code and network will be very different and many of the bugs will be worked out.

I was a disbeliever but now I am a true believer. Bitcoin is here to stay. The only danger is that countries will make it illegal. It really is a danger to the way countries manages their economies. But only time will tell. Keep the coins and enjoy the ride. You won't be sorry. Lucky you.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#402

Post by lawn »

etr-strike wrote: post #386
lawn wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh. Increasing the block size to 2MB nor 8MB for that matter will not make a centralized coin. Segwit (besides being a crappy implementation) is by far not enough scaling. That you blame Jihan and Roger is typical stupid propaganda which doesn't belong here.

According to actual research here: http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/49318d3f56c1d525aabf7fda78b23... Each additional kb results in an additional 80ms of delay until the majority learns about a block. Increasing to 8mb means you’re adding a 9min delay in propagation. That is pretty much guaranteed centralization. Perhaps you have some research you can point me to that demonstrates otherwise?

Which does not take into account xthin/compact blocks which cuts down propagation time a lot. In the future graphene will further reduce the time necessary.

How you can conclude a 9min propagation delay for 8MB blocks is beyond me as miners are basically directly connected to each other. This is the only thing that matters decentralization wise.

Bitcoin Unlimited are successfully testing 1GB blocks: https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-unlimited-reveals-gigablock...

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#403

Post by rrix2 »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #371
oarsinsync wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This you may not be aware of, but there have been periods where the fee has remained in excess of over $1 for over 72 hours. A 20 cent fee will not cover you there. Looking at my transaction history, of my last 10 transactions, all had fees in excess of $1, one as high as $14. I'm not losing any sleep over it, but I'm also not going to call the fees reasonable.

I agree, bitcoin is not good for micropayments. But that's not the only use case that matters.

it's one of the only usecase that matters if you're talking about using it as a general-use currency...

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#404

Post by rdiddly »

thanatropism wrote: post #50
rdiddly wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stopped mentioning my parents the same time I moved out of my childhood room.

I moved out of my childhood's room but still have an active conversation (if by WhatsApp only) with the folks. We have been discussing Israel a lot this week, for example. You should appreciate your parents while they're there, they are finite beings.

True for everyone whose parents are still alive, and aren't horrible people from whom the child should keep their distance!

But that's all really beside the point. Someone was comparing HN to their parents, to imply that HN is full of old farts, whereas I used the same shitty associative logic to say that anybody who compares things to their parents probably still lives with them. Fun stuff!

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#405

Post by lawn »

etr-strike wrote: post #400
lawn wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should realize block propagation is largely a solved problem using xthin, compact block and graphene. We could scale to 1GB and propagation would not be an issue. > Core devs are pursuing many alternative and intelligent scaling avenues. Their strategy of stalling for the last couple of years is the least intelligent approach they could have taken. > Core devs are pursuing many alternative and intelligent scaling…

You continue to ignore the actual research. http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/49318d3f56c1d525aabf7fda78b23... The above directly demonstrates how block size results in significant propagation delay. I ask you again: can you show me the research which demonstrates increasing blocksize won’t result in significant propagation delay?

Bitcoin Unlimited is successfully testing 1GB blocks: https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-unlimited-reveals-gigablock...

As I already wrote what matters is propagation between miners which is already very fast, even according your own link, which examins propagation throughout the network as a whole not between miners specifically.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#406

Post by rrix2 »

etr-strike wrote: post #398
KirinDave wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

Why what? Why does increasing block size increase propagation delay? Here’s the research paper on it: http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/49318d3f56c1d525aabf7fda78b23... Tl,dr: each additional kB after 1mb adds an additional 80ms in propagation delay. It’s not just bandwidth that’s the problem. Nodes need to validate the block, then communicate that block to other nodes who also need to validate. Big blockers are drinkin…

> Why what?

why does increasing propagation delay lead to centralization?

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#407

Post by TimJRobinson »

This video: https://youtu.be/GtKhYx2Vlb4 helps explain and address the thought process you're going through now. Bitcoin scaling issues are analogous to many internet technologies such as Ethernet. With Ethernet people initially thought there was no way it could scale to support the whole world because the tech just couldnt support anything more than 1mbps, yet people found a way. They built new technology on top of it, they changed packet routing algorithms and they even changed the underlying physical hardware used. The only thing that remains is the name and the brand, Bitcoin will probably go through a similar development process.

In upcoming Bitcoin technology, the lightning network is really exciting. It's a layer that runs on top of Bitcoin which allows thousands or possibly millions of transactions per second, performed instantly, with almost zero fees. It may have bottlenecks of its own, but I'm sure we can overcome them.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#408

Post by etr-strike »

lawn wrote: post #405
etr-strike wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You continue to ignore the actual research. http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/49318d3f56c1d525aabf7fda78b23... The above directly demonstrates how block size results in significant propagation delay. I ask you again: can you show me the research which demonstrates increasing blocksize won’t result in significant propagation delay?

Bitcoin Unlimited is successfully testing 1GB blocks: https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-unlimited-reveals-gigablock... As I already wrote what matters is propagation between miners which is already very fast, even according your own link, which examins propagation throughout the network as a whole not between miners specifically.

This news article doesn’t tell me anything other than if you have a few state of the art computers geographically close all connected to a state of the art internet connection they will maybe be capable of mining 1gb blocks.

If that’s your idea of research, best of luck to bcash.

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#409

Post by wyldfire »

Yes, BTC has weaknesses. No, it cannot scale up to "7 billion people using it for every tiny financial transaction" likely even with Lightning. It doesn't need to and you should please ignore the people who say it will.

I love BTC, I think it's great. I think other cryptocoins innovate where BTC can't. But the BTC zealots who act like BTC will displace general purpose banking (or zanier still, the entire financial industry) make this conversation so frustrating.

BTC can be a success without this all-or-nothing campaign. In fact, it is a success because it will continue to exist/store value, and operate as a medium of exchange. It will have hiccups and scaling challenges and we will entertain proposals like segwit and LN which don't radically alter the coin's design.

Unfortunately they alter enough of the design to disturb the economics/incentives for the different roles. Those different roles have had well-aligned incentives for a long time and hopefully they don't continue to drift apart. This is the greatest risk facing Bitcoin IMO. For a long time I was worried about a weakness in the signature hash. But the bounty for that has been so enormous for so long that I'm doubtful one will ever be discovered. So Bitcoin is truly a robust coin, and it can continue to serve us well. If the 15000USD value is based on "7 billion people using it for every tiny financial transaction" then people should probably start shorting BTC (maybe tomorrow evening w/CBOE/Gemini).

Re: Did Bitcoin just prove it can't scale?

#410

Post by etr-strike »

lawn wrote: post #336
grubles wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogecoin has much cheaper fees than Bcash and its block confirmation target is around 1 minute -- roughly an order of magnitude cheaper and faster than Bcash.

A note to readers: "Bcash" is a derogary term used by Core supporters to undermine and discredit Bitcoin Cash. Always be mindful when someone uses it.

“Bitcoin cash” is a name chosen to confuse newcomers and attempt to steal the bitcoin brand. The CEO of bcash refers to Bitcoin as “SegwitCoin” and their official /r/btc subreddit regularly claims to be the real bitcoin.

Bcash is an appropriate name for the altcoin to eliminate confusion.

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