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Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

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Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#401

Post by bb611 »

azza2110 wrote: post #362
rtpg wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok so something more recent: Unions are constantly fighting to make sure that the pilots of commercial planes are allowed to get enough sleep and not be totally exhausted while flying. And to make sure that flight attendants are only half-zombies...

A typical 737 pilot earns 200-250k AUD and can work no more than 72 hours per month, including training, admin, etc. If a pilot needs so much sleep that they can only safely work 18 hours per week, I'd hate to think how compromised a passenger's safety is when being shuttled around by a Taxi/Uber driver working 40-80 hours per week.

> A typical 737 pilot earns 200-250k AUD and can work no more than 72 hours per month, including training, admin, etc.

Do you have a source for any of those facts? Are you picking on 737 pilots for a reason, or do you really mean to imply this is the average for an Australian pilot?

It all seems unlikely to be true, given that their competitors in the US are limited to 290 working hours and 100 flight hours per month, though those are maximums and are typically reduced by things like flying in the early/late hours, flight connection times, etc. If this were true, it would be very hard for any Australian international airline to compete on long haul flights, and Qantas is doing quite well.

sources:

A summary: http://work.chron.com/duty-limitations-faa-pilot-17646.html

And from the FAA (US air transport regulator): https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=1...

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#402

Post by jules »

pyrale wrote: post #394
jules wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that relevant when the violence was initiated by the company?

It is relevant because there is more to violence than merely physically harming people. Forcing people to use script money when it's not legal is a form of violence, even if they can leave town. Forcing curfew is a form of violence. Refusing to pay workers for work that isn't related directly to profit, but to workers' safety is a form of violence and endangerment, even though it's the miner that still decides he nee…

None of the things you mention are violence. The miners decided that out of all the alternatives they had, that was their best alternative. At some point they decided that it was no longer, so they went on strike. If the system had worked according to the principles I outlined then the company would not have been able to open sniper fire on the workers, and the company would have had to treat its workers better if they wanted people to come back to work.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#403

Post by jules »

jahaja wrote: post #399
jules wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing theological about the widely accepted meaning of voluntary. If your definition of voluntary includes putting a gun to somebody's head or does not include exchange of one good for another, then you are the one redefining language in service of your ideology. The problem in the age of kings was that kings enjoyed special rights and the populace did not have property rights. The king could, and often di…

It's certainly not widely accepted. Almost only libertarians have such a dogmatic understanding of the meaning of voluntary - simply because it defies common sense. Furthermore I have no idea where I defined it as including "putting a gun to somebody's head". However I do recognize, unlike libertarians, that there's both direct and indirect ways of putting a gun towards someones head. Only acknowledging the former is…

> It's certainly not widely accepted. Almost only libertarians have such a dogmatic understanding of the meaning of voluntary - simply because it defies common sense.

What libertarians believe is not relevant. I am not a libertarian and do not speak for them. I do not share their dogmatic understanding of the word voluntary. I agree that the meaning is not perfectly well defined and that there is a discussion to be had, but there are limits to which you can stretch its meaning. What of my description of voluntary is not widely accepted?

> You do realize that even if the common people would have property rights during the age of kings it wouldn't matter? Neither will it in a modern version of it.

Except for the fact that it has. Almost all aristocratic families in my country have gone all but bankrupt. They have had to transform their castles into hotels and museums in order to barely break even on the cost of the upkeep. In fact, many of these castles are receiving government help as monuments.

> I'm sure we could compile an equal body count of regimes calling themselves free market/market economy/capitalist or similar.

No, you cannot. There are a few, like the Pinochet regime, but the death toll is orders of magnitude off. In fact, although authoritarian politically, Chile did transform from the poorest country in Latin America into the richest. And it transitioned to democracy with very little violence.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#404

Post by jahaja »

jules wrote: post #403
jahaja wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly not widely accepted. Almost only libertarians have such a dogmatic understanding of the meaning of voluntary - simply because it defies common sense. Furthermore I have no idea where I defined it as including "putting a gun to somebody's head". However I do recognize, unlike libertarians, that there's both direct and indirect ways of putting a gun towards someones head. Only acknowledging the former is…

> It's certainly not widely accepted. Almost only libertarians have such a dogmatic understanding of the meaning of voluntary - simply because it defies common sense. What libertarians believe is not relevant. I am not a libertarian and do not speak for them. I do not share their dogmatic understanding of the word voluntary. I agree that the meaning is not perfectly well defined and that there is a discussion to be h…

It's clearly an exercise in futility to engage further with such an ahistorical world view. It would go too far off-topic as well. Thanks though.

However, I'll give you a starting point for compiling a list by the same yard stick; there was recently news coverage of an Indian politician accusing Churchill of genocide. It has been barely contested, and for good historical reason. And that's the proverbial tip of the iceberg.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#405

Post by logfromblammo »

santaclaus wrote: post #256
logfromblammo wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't really be about the pay for me. I'd want my union to crush open plan workplaces, especially the ones that stick software development next to sales. Please put 4.5" of solid wall, and at least one closeable door, between me and all that incessant yapping on the raprod. Also, it would be nice to ban cargo-culting. Like daily all-hands "stand-up meetings" that last 45 minutes. Don't let management make us ta…

> Like daily all-hands "stand-up meetings" Unions vs Agile?

Pairing "all-hands" with "stand-up" rules out "Agile" for every department larger than five or six people.

A union rule could limit the number of people that can participate in a "stand-up meeting" to seven, and limit the duration to twenty minutes.

That way, when management tries to pack 20+ people around the walls of a corner office to waste 45 minutes every day, I could complain to my union rep instead of telling said management "I have some concerns about the daily stand-up meeting" and getting fired for it.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#406

Post by jules »

jahaja wrote: post #404
jules wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's certainly not widely accepted. Almost only libertarians have such a dogmatic understanding of the meaning of voluntary - simply because it defies common sense. What libertarians believe is not relevant. I am not a libertarian and do not speak for them. I do not share their dogmatic understanding of the word voluntary. I agree that the meaning is not perfectly well defined and that there is a discussion to be h…

It's clearly an exercise in futility to engage further with such an ahistorical world view. It would go too far off-topic as well. Thanks though. However, I'll give you a starting point for compiling a list by the same yard stick; there was recently news coverage of an Indian politician accusing Churchill of genocide. It has been barely contested, and for good historical reason. And that's the proverbial tip of the i…

Firstly, Churchill's war-time policies can hardly be described as capitalism. Secondly, an accusation by a politician means little. Thirdly, even if we accept that it is true and that we can attribute this genocide to capitalism (none of which you have made even plausible), how many of those 100 million does that get you? Fourthly, it is rather curious that you choose a (supposed) genocide executed by government as your attack on capitalism. I would have hoped for an example of a society that embraced capitalism and where tens of millions of people starved as a result. That would be a strong argument. That is after all the primary argument for socialism: the poor will suffer under capitalism, and thrive under socialism. Yet reality continuously fails to comply with this theory. Venezuela is running another experiment right now to prove for the umpteenth time what we already know. Apparently the zoo animals have already been eaten by hungry citizens.

You have also not pointed out what is ahistorical about my view, let alone provided evidence that it is in fact ahistorical.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#407

Post by jules »

crdoconnor wrote: post #390
jules wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children worked at their parents' subsistence farms before the industrial revolution. That is still child labour.

Did I say that they didn't or that it wasn't?

Your source does not actually give the data or methodology for their claim that child labour peaked during the industrial revolution, so there is no way to know how they came to that conclusion, but a reasonable explanation is that they counted children working in factories as child labour but they did not count the close to 100% of children working on their parents' farms as child labour, which was the situation before the industrial revolution.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#408

Post by pyrale »

jules wrote: post #402
pyrale wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is relevant because there is more to violence than merely physically harming people. Forcing people to use script money when it's not legal is a form of violence, even if they can leave town. Forcing curfew is a form of violence. Refusing to pay workers for work that isn't related directly to profit, but to workers' safety is a form of violence and endangerment, even though it's the miner that still decides he nee…

None of the things you mention are violence. The miners decided that out of all the alternatives they had, that was their best alternative. At some point they decided that it was no longer, so they went on strike. If the system had worked according to the principles I outlined then the company would not have been able to open sniper fire on the workers, and the company would have had to treat its workers better if th…

In that set of hypotheses you laid out, you're right. My point is that observations tend to prove the predicates necessary for your model are not verified in reality.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#409

Post by jules »

pyrale wrote: post #408
jules wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the things you mention are violence. The miners decided that out of all the alternatives they had, that was their best alternative. At some point they decided that it was no longer, so they went on strike. If the system had worked according to the principles I outlined then the company would not have been able to open sniper fire on the workers, and the company would have had to treat its workers better if th…

In that set of hypotheses you laid out, you're right. My point is that observations tend to prove the predicates necessary for your model are not verified in reality.

Then why give this example?

The whole point of what I said was that in a free market the transactions have to be voluntary. Whatever your definition of voluntary, the precise meaning of which can be debated, it does not include opening sniper fire on people in order to make them work.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#410

Post by ericd »

_jal wrote: post #372
ericd wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those of us with more anti-authoritarian leanings don't relish the idea of having an organization with power over our entire profession... As an alternative, anyone can start a company that puts into practice some of the employee friendly ideas you have, and use that to compete for workers, and try to move the market towards that ideal. I did that, and I really enjoyed the experience. I think my co-workers did too.

Totally get that. I wasn't trying to make a normative argument here, just pointing out that the state Bar and the SEIU are in the same business. For the record, I do consider some of the externalities generated by the professional guilds to be among the worst negatives of unions. As far as where I'm coming from, I used to be more libertarian-ish. I guess I've come to a view that as population density and interconnect…

Heh fair, and I'm certainly not against the idea of government being necessary to coordinate in such large groups, I just don't envy doctors and lawyers for their professional organizations, and am a bit surprised that so many programmers seem to want more structure and intermediaries involved in their employment.
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