Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#401

Post by dguaraglia » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 9:25 PM UTC

rpiguy wrote: post #189

dguaraglia wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The memo makes a whole case against "the Left" (capitalization from the memo) and how "leftists" are violent. That doesn't sound like "conciliatory manner" to me, especially considering he makes a blanket statement about Google "leaning left."

The blanket statement that Google leans left is empirically true. You also seem to have misread his comments about violence, as he claims the left tends to be more compassionate. Did you read the memo?

No, I didn't misread the memo:

> While Google hasn’t harbored the violent leftists protests that we’re seeing at universities, the frequent shaming in TGIF and in our culture has created the same silence, psychologically unsafe environment.

What he does is list "compassion for the weak" as a "left bias". That's not necessarily a statement in support of leftist ideals when combined with this two assertions:

> In addition to the Left’s affinity for those it sees as weak, humans are generally biased towards protecting females.

> The same compassion for those seen as weak creates political correctness[11], which constrains discourse and is complacent to the extremely sensitive PC-authoritarians that use violence and shaming to advance their cause

(Which, BTW, is right before the first thing I quoted.)

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#402

Post by arcticfox » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 9:25 PM UTC

evolve2017 wrote: post #240

rpiguy wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore never said that women were worse engineers or that biology makes them worse engineers. There was no implied inferiority. It is largely the PC crowd who read implied-inferiority into any study of biological differences between male and female. If you look carefully at some of the comments from female Googlers after the memo was leaked, they talk about fears of being perceived as less capable based on their biol…

I think this has been talked about multiple times over - Damore did not have a line that states that women and/or minorities are bad engineers. He does, however, clearly state that Google's hiring standards had 'lowered the bar' for women and minorities. I think it's awfully charitable not to infer that he considers the women/minorities at Google (on average) to be inferior engineers. Still, it's true that he never s…

This is the type of resentment / thinking that he wants the company to steer away from. If they do encode 'lower bar' policies, it's an inevitable and rational conclusion to draw, which is incredibly toxic I agree. By taking other approaches to diversity at different stages in the funnel, that toxic inevitability is avoided.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#403

Post by exergy » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 9:25 PM UTC

virtuabhi wrote: post #68

hedgew wrote: post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

There are many, many reasonable criticisms of the memo that do not focus on writing style. Here are a few examples - https://www.wired.com/story/the-pernicious-science-of-james-... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/13/james-dam... https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-bio...

That wired article was excellent. And it proves one thing to my mind. Regardless of everything else, Damore's memo has lead me to vastly expand my knowledge of the debates in this domain, through just being a curious observer watching it all unfold. It's been wonderful, if extremely provocative, in generating proper debate on the subject, focussed on all possible angles, from writing style, to science, to hiring policies.

Amidst all this, Google firing him is the biggest shame.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#404

Post by token92375 » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 9:25 PM UTC

> By remaining silent on this topic or tweeting support for Damore, they are sending a message that philosophical arguments and principles take precedence over the lived experiences of many smart, talented female engineers and technical founders.

In my world view philosophical principles generally take precedence over lived experiences of others. Lived experiences are not universal, cannot be relayed exactly (memories are often colored and retellings may be selective to make a particular point). If we want our ethical systems to apply to everyone, to be inclusive, we need principles that work for everyone, not just correctives for individual cases.

A lot of TFA appears to put emotion, form, "lack of consideration" and presentation over facts. I am abstractly aware that those things have quite an impact on people. But it is quite alien to me, in text form the factual content of argument is more important because text can be easily misinterpreted and it is not a dialogue where the writer can clarify and correct any misunderstandings.

That said, the response is still far more measured than the immediate news and social media response.

> Social skills are part of a professional skillset. It is important to learn how to handle difficult subjects in a workplace – we all have to do it. There are consequences for doing it in a way that causes problems for your employer

He was not the one who leaked it. It was those people who were so offended that they thought the world had to see it instead of engaging in a discussion with him. If the issue is "causing problems for the employer" then aren't those others also guilty?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#405

Post by camgunz » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 9:26 PM UTC

jrs95 wrote: post #373

nicolashahn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the correct way to handle it is to drop another refutational evidence bomb attacking his primary points instead of picking the low hanging fruit of claiming it's "too confrontational," "poorly written," "naive," or whatever other secondary problems exist (this is aside from wilfully misrepresenting his claims, which is definitely a bigger problem). Plenty of far more aggressive articles and essays have been writ…

This would be good. I've seen 0 criticism of it that falls into this category so far. For the most part, it's essentially just been "I don't like the conclusion so I'm going to call you a sexist and make a straw man of your argument while ignoring the details."

Dr. Sadedin's Quora answer is pretty good:

https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-bio...

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#406

Post by megous » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 9:26 PM UTC

ryanbrunner wrote: post #52

hedgew wrote: post #21

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even…

I think one thing that struck me from the linked article was the point that the memo wasn't structured to invite discussion. It wasn't "let's have a chat", it was "here's an evidence bomb of how you're all wrong". I think advancing points is fine, but if you're after productive discussion rather than an adversarial debate, you need to proactively invite discussion. And if an adversarial debate was what he was after,…

I think if you want to critique author's approach to discussion, you need to learn first what it actually was.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#407

Post by alexandercrohde » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 9:26 PM UTC

evolve2017 wrote: post #240

rpiguy wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore never said that women were worse engineers or that biology makes them worse engineers. There was no implied inferiority. It is largely the PC crowd who read implied-inferiority into any study of biological differences between male and female. If you look carefully at some of the comments from female Googlers after the memo was leaked, they talk about fears of being perceived as less capable based on their biol…

I think this has been talked about multiple times over - Damore did not have a line that states that women and/or minorities are bad engineers. He does, however, clearly state that Google's hiring standards had 'lowered the bar' for women and minorities. I think it's awfully charitable not to infer that he considers the women/minorities at Google (on average) to be inferior engineers. Still, it's true that he never s…

Do you understand what's happening here? Whether or not google "lowered the bar" (i.e. had distinct hiring criteria for men or women) is a fact and only a fact. It may be a true fact, or it may be a false fact. But it is not an opinion.

But somehow it gets turned into "This means he thinks women are worse, therefore he's insulting women, therefore it's a hostile workplace, therefore he got fired." That reasoning is a major leap, and it's not Damore's leap.

Taking a fact and turning it into a hostile-workplace-opinion is the real problem.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#408

Post by romanovcode » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 9:26 PM UTC

dguaraglia wrote: post #246

mastazi wrote: post #185

So the takeaway is: you should become extremely proficient at writing memos and back them up with vast amounts of research, or be fired. But all of the above applies only if your memo expresses conservative ideas. I don't consider myself a conservative but I find all of this disturbing.

Maybe the takeaway is: you shouldn't write "memos" that generate a lot of noise and lost productivity in your work environment and affect your company's external image. If you have political points you want to make, go find a group of like-minded individuals and discuss with them first.

I think the takeaway is to not express any opinions that go against mainstream in public.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#409

Post by mathw » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 9:26 PM UTC

redthrowaway wrote: post #379

evolve2017 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this has been talked about multiple times over - Damore did not have a line that states that women and/or minorities are bad engineers. He does, however, clearly state that Google's hiring standards had 'lowered the bar' for women and minorities. I think it's awfully charitable not to infer that he considers the women/minorities at Google (on average) to be inferior engineers. Still, it's true that he never s…

>He does, however, clearly state that Google's hiring standards had 'lowered the bar' for women and minorities. I think it's awfully charitable not to infer that he considers the women/minorities at Google (on average) to be inferior engineers. Yes, but that's simply how statistics work. If you require one group of people to score 90 on some test in order to be hired, and another group to score 80, then among success…

Indeed, however Google have said that their hiring practices for minority groups involve looking harder in those groups for candidates, not hiring candidates who don't meet the usual standards.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#410

Post by joe_the_user » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 9:28 PM UTC

rpiguy wrote: post #179

joe_the_user wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually say just the opposite - the memo seemed to be written as well and in as conciliatory manner as it could be written and the memo made good (or at least plausible) point and bad points. But the bad points were so bad that it was appropriate and necessary to fire Damore. Essentially, as analogy, there's no way for a person to say "Black people are inferior and shouldn't be hired", as a message broadcast thr…

Damore never said that women were worse engineers or that biology makes them worse engineers. There was no implied inferiority. It is largely the PC crowd who read implied-inferiority into any study of biological differences between male and female. If you look carefully at some of the comments from female Googlers after the memo was leaked, they talk about fears of being perceived as less capable based on their biol…

Damore never said that women were worse engineers

You're just saying "He couched the point well-enough", he didn't say they were worse engineers, he just said they weren't naturally inclined to work with things. Sure that doesn't literally state that women as worse, it just casts an equivalent shadow on a woman wanting to be an engineer.