Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do • Hacker News Board

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#401

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 8:43 PM UTC

giardini wrote: post #353

pjc50 wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you win today's "I need guns for a ridiculously unlikely scenario" prize. There are zoos and suchlike, and there have even occasionally been escapes, which are usually recaptured with a tranquiliser dart gun.

Earthquake, flood, hurricane, severe blizzard, fire, riots, political unrest, lynching, epidemic disease, while all unlikely, happen with regularity in the USA. We are lucky we don't need to deal with famine here, but in the rest of the world it is a real threat. 1. Do you know police shot and killed unarmed people at Danziger Bridge during Hurricane Katrina? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danziger_Bridge_shootings 2.…

Don't you have armed police/military who, while a blessing in some instances, are in others a curse?

Occasionally. This is why I keep bringing up Northern Ireland. However that is a situation in which armed civilians fought back against having their civil rights violated by the state, resulting in a >30 year civil war and bombing campaign.

I don't even understand what you're saying should have happened instead in New Orleans - should people have been shooting back? Surely the right answer is everyone being less trigger happy?

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#402

Post by hfsktr » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 8:52 PM UTC

djrogers wrote: post #332

Loque wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you need a gun to defend yourself against? In the UK someone did use a gun to "defend" themselves, against two people without guns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)

> What do you need a gun to defend yourself against? An escaped inmate holding your family hostage? http://www.vicksburgpost.com/2016/03/10/man-killed-following... A crazy man on a hatchet rampage? http://www.vicksburgpost.com/2016/03/10/man-killed-following... A violent criminal attacking you in an elevator? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3481507/Woman-leaves... Of course defensive gun use doesn't fit the a…

Your first two links are the same but your description for each is a bit different.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#403

Post by knz » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 8:53 PM UTC

salgernon wrote: post #394

knz wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's great that you ask (as a parent unsecured firearms also concern me) but wouldn't it make more sense to ask what type of firearms are in the house and how they are stored? There is a huge difference between an unloaded rifle locked in a safe and a loaded pistol in a drawer. Even then, how can you be sure that people respond truthfully? I intend to teach my kids about the hazards of firearms in the same wa…

I don't differentiate because I don't believe that those are sufficient safeguards. I believe this because when I was 12, friends routinely accessed firearms that their parents believed were secured, and many a starwars figurine was thus destroyed. Your comment about chemical safety and tools bring up a very good point - a gun is just a tool, like a woodchipper, and while I wouldn't let my kid play with a woodchipper…

Fair enough. Thanks for the reply. My high school had a target shooting club that satisfied much of the curiosity for my friends and I at that age and taught us gun safety. Since moving to the US I've definitely noticed that some gun owners here are much more lax about safe/secure storage.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#404

Post by nsxwolf » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 9:09 PM UTC

welterde wrote: post #378

nsxwolf wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a right wing gun nut and I am strongly pro-Snowden, for what its worth. I am a gun nut because I fear government, and the NSA revelations are proof that my fears are justified. A lot of other gun nuts think like me. Don't assume the Republican party represents us.

How does having a gun alleviate your fear of the government?

I don't recall saying it did.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#405

Post by welterde » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 9:54 PM UTC

nsxwolf wrote: post #404

welterde wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does having a gun alleviate your fear of the government?

I don't recall saying it did.

Perhaps I worded it poorly.. why have guns if you fear the government? How does being a gun nut and fearing the government relate?

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#406

Post by FireBeyond » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 10:11 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #399

FireBeyond wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good point. Most studies show that charity giving by political affiliation to be nearly equal, or to put conservatives slightly ahead: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/10/21/study... That being said, conservatives are far more likely to give to their church as a charity, and when churches (but not 'all religious organizations') are removed from the equation, the balance dramatically shifts. It…

Is your argument that we give to a charity that we see the results in, that informs us where the money goes, we agree with the philosophy of the charity, and part of our beliefs might include mandatory giving, then that charity is invalid? "but that for others they are used more for publicity/promotional/snowballing purposes" You need proof of that. I would also point out https://philanthropy.com/specialreport/how-am…

The challenge with that is that many churches, especially the "megachurches", actively resist revealing that information.

A survey revealed a breakdown of 'senior pastor' versus other personnel relative salaries, without divulging any specifics: http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/september/ho...

But it did say that most large churches spend "slightly less than half their givings on staffing costs".

"The most strategic churches we work with are realizing that a premier children’s pastor/leader can become one of, if not the largest growth engines for the church. And such churches are paying accordingly. We are seeing an increasing trend of churches who pay the top person over children’s ministry more and more. In some cases, the children’s pastor is one of the top paid people on staff, higher than the student pastor, worship pastor or small groups pastor."

This is from a site that is specifically pro-Christianity, and goes directly to that - whilst I might not believe in a religious organization, spending money on growing the church is in no way something I'd consider 'charitable giving'.

"Elevation Church does post some financial records on its website, reporting that the church took in $33.5 million in offerings last year and gave away about $3.8 million in outreach, spent $9 million on personnel and reported $13.9 million in cash assets."

(this after their pastor purchased a 'not that great' 16,000 sq ft home on 19 acres, and said that would be 'against Christ's teachings' to disclose what he was paid) - http://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/megamansion-building-megachu...

A study by ECCU (http://web.archive.org/web/20141019033209/https://www.eccu.o...) stated that churches use 3 percent of their budget for children’s and youth programs, and 2 percent for adult programs. Local and national benevolence receives 1 percent of the typical church budget.

So I -do- place some skepticism on the idea of blanketing 'religious giving' as 'charitable contribution'.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#407

Post by lolc » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 10:11 PM UTC

ZoeZoeBee wrote: post #183

lolc wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think just having a culture shift away from the romantic idea that private guns deter crime and offer protection would bring down the amount of gun accidents considerably. Punishing people after something bad happens turns out to not work very well for prevention. Another romantic idea demolished by reality. Compare: Psychoactive substances: We just lock up anybody touching them. Guns: We lock up anybody abusing th…

Banning Guns may Decrease Gun Violence, But they do not have the effect of reducing Violent Crime In General. Case In point Australia After the Gun Ban Saw Violent Crimes increase, for a few years and after those the decline in Violence was less than the decline seen in most first world nations like the US. http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/violent%20crime.html Ask yourself this question why do people advocating for g…

I was talking about gun accidents. You are talking about something else, violence. People playing with knifes hardly ever accidentally stab people to death.

Now if we assumed that homicides would go up when guns are effectively banned (dubious assumption), we would likely still see a drop in overall gun deaths due to the avoided accidents and suicides.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#408

Post by protomyth » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 10:36 PM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #406

protomyth wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your argument that we give to a charity that we see the results in, that informs us where the money goes, we agree with the philosophy of the charity, and part of our beliefs might include mandatory giving, then that charity is invalid? "but that for others they are used more for publicity/promotional/snowballing purposes" You need proof of that. I would also point out https://philanthropy.com/specialreport/how-am…

The challenge with that is that many churches, especially the "megachurches", actively resist revealing that information. A survey revealed a breakdown of 'senior pastor' versus other personnel relative salaries, without divulging any specifics: http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/september/ho... But it did say that most large churches spend "slightly less than half their givings on staffing costs". "The…

> So I -do- place some skepticism on the idea of blanketing 'religious giving' as 'charitable contribution'.

So, you cherry picked the megachurches without showing how much of the Church going population they make up. I could throw in an equal list[1] of all the charities (some well known) that have horrible giving records . Also, yes, staffing costs are big at churches because these people do actual pastoral work. Of course a church tries to spread the word. That is not much different than a lot of secular charities.

1) http://www.charitynavigator.org

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#409

Post by jjoonathan » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 10:42 PM UTC

adwf wrote: post #386

marrs wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

long term, yes, but in the few years after the gun ban, the graph goes steeply up, so I don't know how you can draw the conclusion that banning guns had the consequence of reducing gun crime. And the graph I linked to seems to use the same data yours does, so aparently your data is just as worthless as mine. It's not irrelevant as a large number of firearms were unlicensed. There were a ton of old service guns lying…

You seem to be falling prey to Simpsons's Paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_paradox The chart is very clearly downward, with a couple of upward slopes in the middle. If you cherry pick the evidence like that crimeresearch.org link does, you'll get the upward slope. If you look at the data as a whole, you get the long term downward trend. This is pretty much the definition of Simpson's Paradox. The down…

Cherry picking isn't the same thing as Simpson's paradox.

As for cherry picking: right back atcha. But even that doesn't work for the Ireland, Jamaica, DC, and Chicago graphs.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#410

Post by jjoonathan » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 10:45 PM UTC

cowardlydragon wrote: post #326

adwf wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terribly cherry-picked charts there. The UK had a spike in homicides in 2003, so what? The overall trend is clearly downwards. The 2009 firearm homicide rate is less than half the avg. rate for the 90's and I believe it has only gone down further since (cherry picked date ranges). Ireland had an increase in homicides following gun bans in the 70's? And it was the gun ban that caused it, not the Troubles? Likewise Jam…

I've heard that somewhere in Somalia some guy had established a 10' x 10' gun free zone, and yet still got killed for a 100% death rate. Clearly laws are useless.

So... because England doesn't agree with your agenda it must not be a large enough sample and its laws must have the same legitimacy that you get from the random dictates of some random Somali guy? I see.