SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’ • Hacker News Board

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#401

Post by curun1r » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:51 PM UTC

orthecreedence wrote: post #367

curun1r wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not having to see homelessness sounds harsh. But what about not having to dodge shit, piss and uncapped needles on the street? What about not having to be asked for money constantly? What about not having to hear people yelling at the top of their lungs at 3am? What about not having to feel unsafe ? If it were just seeing people being unobtrusively homeless, there would be no problem, even if they were plainly visibl…

> I know people are frustrated about gentrification happening in the city, but the reality is, we live in a free market society He is free to be rich while others are poor because of the free market. Seems like his free market has created a number of people who leave urine and feces in the streets and ask people for money. He wants the benefit of a free market without having to deal with the consequences.

He's not appealing to the free market to fix the problem. He's appealing to his city's government, to whom he pays taxes and has a reasonable expectation that of dealing with problems like these.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#402

Post by js8 » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:52 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #208

kauffj wrote: post #55

It's ironic that Keller will get so much shit dumped on him for making the same exact argument that people make against more permissive immigration. Compare: A : Allowing people trapped in unproductive countries to move to US/Canada/Europe would significantly improve their quality of life. B : But think of burden to the welfare state! We wouldn't be able to afford the flood of people moving here for benefits. A : Sim…

I have a theory that "left" and "right" can be replaced with how a big a circle of humanity you care about. The people towards the right care about their family, or their community. The people on the left care about a slightly wider circle. On the far "right" you get sociopaths that only care about themselves. On the far "left" you get utopian hippies that care about people suffering on the other side of the world. W…

I have a more complicated theory: What you're talking about (size of the circle) is liberal/conservative/libertarian distinction. Left vs. right is more about if you care about power imbalances (such as economic inequality) within the circle.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#403

Post by cfreeman » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:53 PM UTC

VonGuard wrote: post #338

While this guy maybe went about saying it wrong, he has a point. There really is no other place on Earth that puts up with the level of homelessness we see here in the Bay Area. New York, Boston, Chicago, none have anywhere near this many homeless people. All over Europe, there are few homeless people. It's really a specifically Bay Area, or maybe a West Coast problem. It's utterly out of control. It's complex, it's…

It's becoming a huge problem in Portland as well. We've always had homeless but recently this situation is becoming worse and worse. I live close to the city center and my neighborhood resembles a shanty town with all the homeless people camped out on the street. It sucks because it seems like the city is doing next to nothing to resolve the problem right now, we have a lame duck mayor that doesn't want to touch the issue.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#404

Post by samstave » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:53 PM UTC

I'm 41, was born in SF and have been living back in the bay area since 97.

In all my years in living in SF, or the bay area at large, I have never once had an altercation or otherwise problem with a homeless person.

In fact, I give them stern talkings to occasionally; Two days ago there was a homeless person on Market whos pants were falling down - I told him very sternly "Pull your pants up" and he did so.

There was a drunk guy wobbling down by the ball park and I commanded him to drink some water and gave him a bottle of water.

I almost always give away any left over food I have to homeless people I pass if I have left a restaurant.

I've told homeless people to not pee on certain places etc...

I have found when you interact with them in a straightforward way, and dont act fearful or contemptuously of them - they are just people who have a shitty support system (gov and people included) - but they still need a bit of direction.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#405

Post by zepto » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:55 PM UTC

monkmartinez wrote: post #279

zepto wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty clear that you have absolutely zero experience about mental health or human psychology. Amongst other things, most people will attempt to adapt to their situation and retain a sense of agency. That is one reason why you'll find that homeless people speak of the positive aspects of their lifestyle and act as though it's a choice. This is no different from a startup founder extolling the virtues of their 80…

You are right; I am not a clinical psychologist. In some cases, I deal with people when the shit has hit the fan. That is, I know how most people react to really bad events because I see it quite regularly. In other cases, I deal with the long, slow, and painful descent age and terminal disease bring to people's mental faculties. In yet other cases, I get to talk with regular 911 callers that we wake up with Narcan,…

But you know nothing about how to treat these people and all you can do is blame them for their own predicament. What use is that?

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#406

Post by Justsignedup » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:58 PM UTC

monkmartinez wrote: post #45

Afforess wrote: post #9

To play devil's advocate, he's right. He shouldn't have to see the pain, struggle, and despair of homeless - the city government should be providing affordable housing and shelters for the homeless. That it hasn't is a failure of the local government, and should be addressed. Much of the reason that affordable housing is out of reach of many in San Francisco is due to government regulation, not market capitalism. Ext…

This is a complex issue... but in my experience, most of the homeless are not looking for help to find jobs and/or contribute to society in manner that will lead them out of "homelessness." A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle"... we try very hard to help the people that want help. Most don't. Go talk to your local EMS/Fire department personnel and most of them will have similar stories. I know the homeless people in…

Do you have any idea how taxing it is on the psyche to be homeless? Maybe there are one or two people who chose this lifestyle like developers mooching off Google. But overall this is the exception, not the rule.

Reasons many are homeless:

- Psychiatric problems. They can't fit in to normal working conditions because they are for lack of a better word crazy. They also don't get the necessary help due to poverty.

- Lost a job. In a city like New York where the cost of a studio apartment over an hour away by train can cost 1 grand a month, and minimum wage is still $9 an hour, and food is pricy, and metro isn't exactly cheap either, it can be very easy to fall into the homeless problem if you don't have friends and family helping. I know quite a few people who were fortunate to have had a car and able to get up and leave the state rather than sleep on the street.

- Being homeless often means no access to cleanliness which limits your ability to find a job. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

- If you are injured to a point where you can't work, it is not very easy to get government disability. My friend took 2 years to get the benefits while she was completely crippled. She was surviving on the generosity of her friends. When the government finally gave her money, she was able to afford a teensy apartment. If she ended up homeless the government wouldn't give her the benefits because you need an official place of residence.

- Speaking of a place of residence, a crippled homeless person cannot go to a shelter because they will be preyed upon. And they can't physically fight back. And so they also can't claim benefits because of this. I know one such person.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#407

Post by chris_wot » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:58 PM UTC

blackrose wrote: post #205

cloverich wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because personal accounts are only generalizable when backed by additional sources / data. There's a difference between whether or not this person is being genuine (My bias is yes) and whether or not their accounts are generalizable (My bias is no). Asking for citations is to me a way of asking someone who seems already familiar with what they are describing for more information, so I can learn more / share with othe…

He was obviously being anecdotal. Asking for a citation on it is like asking for a professional food critic's review on a cheeseburger that your friend just ate and said was "really good." It's pedantic and condescending when OP obviously has some experience with the situation based on their profession.

Nothing you've just stated negates the fact that personal accounts are only generalizable when backed by additional sources and/or data.

If there are 25,000 homeless and an EMT sees 1000 homeless people in a year (which I'd say I'm probably vastly over estimating) in situations where they are in greatest need, then all you have is a limited anecdotal view of a small proportion of the total population of homeless people at the lowest and least dignified point in their lives.

It doesn't tell you how they got to be in that situation.

It doesn't show you their day to day grind.

It doesn't indicate if they always want to be homeless, or you've just seen them when they are feeling defensive or aren't in full control of their faculties.

In short, it just shows you that because of the nature of being an EMT, he sees people in dire situations, on occasions that would frustrate anyone viewing the homeless person because of any number of high stress factors, including mental illness but also malnutrition, poor sleep or severe discomfort.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#408

Post by brbsix » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:58 PM UTC

shin_lao wrote: post #383

themartorana wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's great, then. It seems like a liberal calling card but appeals to everyone's desire to save money while providing actually useful social services. So what's the political argument against it?

Problem is that people just a bit richer than homeless might complain about not having free housing, too.

See welfare cliff. Why struggle to afford housing when a slight reduction in your income (or whatever the criteria) could net free housing? I can certainly see the appeal.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#409

Post by kweks » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:58 PM UTC

aeturnum wrote: post #364

kweks wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subject is more nuanced than this. Firstly, you need to examine the reason why people are on the streets. Generally, it falls into three categories: 1. 'Normal' People with mental illness, and no support network 2. 'Normal' People who have lost their financial stability. 3. Rest (Choice, Addiction, etc. by far the smallest group) The key thing to note here is that with very, very few exceptions, everyone living o…

> The key thing to note here is that with very, very few exceptions, everyone living on the street was a 'normal' person. The line of being 'normal' and 'homeless' is startlingly slim. I did some work with a bay area organization that runs reduced rate housing for transitionally housed people and families when I was in college. First, I should say that you're completely correct about the numbers at any given time, bu…

Thanks for the well balanced, well informed reply.

You're completely right on every single point - you highlight a lot more of the 'nuance' that I was referring to.

Obviously, and luckily, the majority of people would not be permanently on the street if they missed a paycheck, mainly because they have other support structures in place: good health, shelter, family and friend network.

However if these elements are lost simultaneously, or weren't strong to begin with, the chances of the individual recovering decrease.

And, obviously - the longer on the street, the longer the recovery - it's definitely not a case of giving out a job, suit and tie and a paycheck and expecting the trauma to evaporate.

Re: SF tech bro: ‘I shouldn’t have to see the pain, struggle, despair of homeless’

#410

Post by civilian » Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 6:58 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #208

kauffj wrote: post #55

It's ironic that Keller will get so much shit dumped on him for making the same exact argument that people make against more permissive immigration. Compare: A : Allowing people trapped in unproductive countries to move to US/Canada/Europe would significantly improve their quality of life. B : But think of burden to the welfare state! We wouldn't be able to afford the flood of people moving here for benefits. A : Sim…

I have a theory that "left" and "right" can be replaced with how a big a circle of humanity you care about. The people towards the right care about their family, or their community. The people on the left care about a slightly wider circle. On the far "right" you get sociopaths that only care about themselves. On the far "left" you get utopian hippies that care about people suffering on the other side of the world. W…

Yeah! It's why it's so weird to see politicians and their supports protest efforts to reduce trade tariffs. With more trade, we will be literally creating new wealth. It will be helping lower the cost of the related goods in the first world, and it'll be giving more and slightly better jobs to the third world, where it'll be helping the poorest there. So why is it a bad thing again?