Why expat Americans are giving up their passports • Hacker News Board

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#401

Post by cpursley » Thu, Feb 11, 2016, 1:40 PM UTC

__P wrote: post #380

cpursley wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? I haven't taken advantage of anyone. I file and pay my taxes like everyone else. It's just that dropping bombs on impoverished people and bailing out corporations do not align with my personal values. How does this make me greedy?

But you are cherry picking outcomes. Does a police force, an army, a functioning society align with your personal values? I agree government make mistakes, but that isn't an argument for getting rid of government, that's an argument for getting rid of mistakes.

I didn't say get rid of government. There are plenty of nations with functioning societies and services ranging from those with zero income tax to a flat tax.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#402

Post by Relys » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 12:16 AM UTC

Ensorceled wrote: post #133

josh_fyi wrote: post #58

For most tax forms, the IRS says "you have to fill out this form so as to pay the correct taxes." For FATCA, the IRS says "FATCA targets tax non-compliance by U.S. taxpayers with foreign accounts." https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Corporations/Foreign-Account-... In other words, FATCA treats all Americans overseas as a priori criminals -- the form is being filled out to "target non-compliance."

This is exactly how the IRS treats all non-resident US tax payers. My ex, a joint Canadian/US citizen, had a problem with her taxes one year. The CRA (Canadian Revenue Agency) sent a letter that basically said "You appear to have made a mistake on your taxes, we think you owe an extra $XXXX. Check with your accountant, sorry for the bother if this isn't correct." the letter from the IRS basically said "You have defra…

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? People make simple mistakes all the time. With something as bloated and obtuse as the US tax code the margin of error for honest mistakes is drastically increased. Criminal action should be classified as preemptive malicious intent. Glad to hear things worked out to you. Props to the CRA for it's professional conduct.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#403

Post by Ensorceled » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 12:26 AM UTC

Relys wrote: post #402

Ensorceled wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly how the IRS treats all non-resident US tax payers. My ex, a joint Canadian/US citizen, had a problem with her taxes one year. The CRA (Canadian Revenue Agency) sent a letter that basically said "You appear to have made a mistake on your taxes, we think you owe an extra $XXXX. Check with your accountant, sorry for the bother if this isn't correct." the letter from the IRS basically said "You have defra…

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? People make simple mistakes all the time. With something as bloated and obtuse as the US tax code the margin of error for honest mistakes is drastically increased. Criminal action should be classified as preemptive malicious intent. Glad to hear things worked out to you. Props to the CRA for it's professional conduct.

Also, many parts of the tax act have grey areas where even the CRA/IRS is unsure. You can call the CRA/IRS several times and get different opinions on a situation depending upon which agent you talk to.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#404

Post by 1stop » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 2:22 AM UTC

cpursley wrote: post #401

__P wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you are cherry picking outcomes. Does a police force, an army, a functioning society align with your personal values? I agree government make mistakes, but that isn't an argument for getting rid of government, that's an argument for getting rid of mistakes.

I didn't say get rid of government. There are plenty of nations with functioning societies and services ranging from those with zero income tax to a flat tax.

... Zero income tax? Care to name one. I would hazard a guess they derive revenue from some other source as their middle class is either non existent or they have piles of oil.

So you are saying you want higher business tax? Or a flat tax rate... How does the mechanism of tax relate to your view of coercion though? Isn't it coercion regardless the rate?

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#405

Post by whazzis » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 7:43 AM UTC

Part of the problem is how difficult it is to understand what your obligations are, even if you intend to comply. And then there are things that are just plain unfair. Let's say that you live in Canada and you bought your house for $500,000 Cdn. Five years later you sell it for the same $500,000. Except during that time, due to exchange rate fluctuation, the house increased in value relative to the US dollar, going from, for example, $400K to $600K US. (Entirely possible, given how much change there has been in the two currencies over the last few years.) The US considers you to have made $200K US in speculation and expects you to pay taxes to the US on that gain. Even though there was no gain -- you live in Canada and bought and sold the house in Canadian dollars. Capital gains exemptions don't apply here--they consider this to be currency speculation. Mindboggling. And easy to get yourself in trouble over without realizing.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#406

Post by maxerize » Fri, Feb 12, 2016, 8:35 AM UTC

splintercell wrote: post #320

jacquesm wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so I get this straight, you are claiming that America currently is the go to place for literature, art, philosophy, cinema and political thinking? I'd accept such a claim for web scale technology and some other fields but for all of the above definitely not so much.

I missed technology and science in my list of things, but yeah that too. If we use Nobel prizes as a metric, then US beats other countries by a wide margin in everything except Literature. (Surprisingly Germany and UK, the old world leaders still come close second, but then we ARE considering nobel prizes awarded between 1901-2014). In terms of per capita, US is ranked 19th, and UK, the only large country in terms of…

1. Nobel prizes are a very poor metric, e.g: http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/nobel-literature-judge-says-awar...

2. Where you see fragmentation, we see diversity and a richer ecosystem. Where you see cultural disparities, we see a complex interplay of different cultures over millennia. Homogeneous populations are actually at a disadvantage because they don't have that kind of activity.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#407

Post by garfieldnate » Sat, Feb 13, 2016, 2:33 AM UTC

I live in Japan, and when I went to open a bank account there was a lot of paperwork, including this funny form that said they would notify the American government of my address and how much money I had. I felt pretty violated by it- as if the NSA stuff wasn't enough, they now track me outside of the US. I don't make enough money to be taxed, but I don't like being tracked, either.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#408

Post by rahimnathwani » Sat, Feb 13, 2016, 8:58 AM UTC

fapjacks wrote: post #389

rahimnathwani wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you have a Euro passport, you might as well torch your American one." Even if that were true, what proportion of US citizens living outside the US (the class to which my comment and the immediate parent referred) have a 'Euro passport'?

That doesn't make what I said less true. You speak to counter the claim of downsides to having an American passport, I'm providing evidence of harm to your livelihood in some parts of the world for having an American passport (versus any other kind of passport).

"You speak to counter the claim of downsides to having an American passport"

No, I spoke to counter this claim: "If you don't intend to return to the USA there are no benefits to US citizenship, only downsides."

I did not comment on the downsides. I spoke only of the benefits, which the parent comment said did not exist.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#409

Post by rahimnathwani » Sat, Feb 13, 2016, 11:04 AM UTC

DKnoll wrote: post #371

toomuchtodo wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TIL that both UK and US passports are the most powerful passports in the world.

Only in terms of the countries you can travel to without a visa. Go just about anywhere with a Canadian passport and they'll wave you past, almost like they're annoyed you think you might be considered a security risk. I got a 6 month visa in the UK while laid over at Heathrow in under 10 minutes. Under "Reason for your stay in the UK" I wrote "a cigarette."

Why did you need a visa to get a cigarette? Canadians don't need a visa to enter the UK for tourism/transit/business, subject to some maximum amount of time (90 days IIRC, but definitely more than enough to buy a packet of cigarettes).

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#410

Post by DKnoll » Tue, Feb 16, 2016, 9:00 PM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #409

DKnoll wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in terms of the countries you can travel to without a visa. Go just about anywhere with a Canadian passport and they'll wave you past, almost like they're annoyed you think you might be considered a security risk. I got a 6 month visa in the UK while laid over at Heathrow in under 10 minutes. Under "Reason for your stay in the UK" I wrote "a cigarette."

Why did you need a visa to get a cigarette? Canadians don't need a visa to enter the UK for tourism/transit/business, subject to some maximum amount of time (90 days IIRC, but definitely more than enough to buy a packet of cigarettes).

I was holding a carton of Marlboro Reds purchased in Berlin, so I didn't even need to buy any. I'm fairly certain we still need a visa, but it's basically an automatic process.