What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#401

Post by Mz » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 4:48 PM UTC

rewqfdsa wrote: post #387

aninhumer wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>English is not structured to be gender-neutral. I'm not going to use awkward circumlocutions to avoid the possibility of offending someone. Using singular they is hardly a "circumlocution", I do it without thinking about it. It's not hard to learn once you actually decide to take responsibility for your own speech. And it's not a "possibility of offending", it's a "certainty of papercuts". If you habitually use male…

> Once you actually decide to take responsibility for your own speech. I accept responsibility for the content of my speech. I do not accept responsibility for feelings of offense others may feel in response to my speech. It's not my job to manage their emotional state.

I am the wrong person to say this to you, and I apologize in advance.

My oldest son is not neurotypical. Raising him was a real challenge. When he was 8, he spent 6 weeks psychologically torturing me. He didn't care about my feelings and he found my reactions amusing. Part of what I told him that finally got him to stop was "The point at which you will care about my feelings is the point at which you want something from me and my reply is No. What have you done for me instead of to me here lately?"

You aren't responsible for anyone else's feelings. But if you routinely disrespect and offend people and then defend your right to crap on others instead of apologizing, that will have consequences for you and they won't be ones you will like. Most people are not as forthright as I am. Most people will never tell you "I am turning down your request because of all the times you were inconsiderate, insensitive, etc." They will just tell you No and not explain why.

I will suggest there may be a connection between how frustrated you seem to feel with other people and your general attitude that their feelings are not your problem. If everyone dislikes you, that can very much be a problem for you.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#402

Post by Mz » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 4:53 PM UTC

belovedeagle wrote: post #302

Mz wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, I believe claims that tiny linguistic differences create meaningful barriers to female participation in technology are all specious. I could be convinced otherwise, but have seen no evidence that might move me. Years ago, I joined an urban planning forum. It had been around for 10 years. It was the most prominent forum of its kind in the world. The majority of members were in Canada or the Continental US.…

> they would make ugly comments about clearly not having a life that they were posting there outside of work hours. How is this a "small linguistic detail"? It has nothing whatsoever to do with using 'he' as a gender-neutral pronoun; it's on a completely different level.

They did not think it was a big deal. It was self deprecating humor, aimed at themselves. It certainly wasn't intended to imply anything about anyone else. If I had tried to convince people that it was something that was going to make foreigners hesitant to post, I would have been dismissed. I didn't bother to try to convince anyone I was right. I felt that the forum owner's clearly stated desire to have more international members was sufficient "permission" for me to feel a clear conscience about rooting out this "humorous" meme. If you think that meme is clearly a big deal but misgendering women is not, I will suggest you are underestimating the problem regarding use of pronouns.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#403

Post by Mz » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 5:08 PM UTC

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #226

Mz wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you aren't interested in "computer parts and tech magazines" then what exactly is it about computing that makes you want to do it? I am a woman with a Certificate in GIS. I know some HTML and CSS. I run some blogs. I joined an email list -- a parenting/homeschooling list -- when my now 28 year old son was 11. It led to me becoming a moderator of an email list for a time. My advice was seemingly popular on that lis…

> Having girly motivations does not mean writing code is of no interest to you. You can be interested in people or whatever and see code as a way to accomplish your goals. I've noticed that in some tech circles, social and emotional motivations (and especially ones with negative valence like anger and disappointment) are seen as sort of unreal and invalid. I understand that people often want to focus on choosing the…

I did once post an article here about how emotional labor is deemed to be women's work and the social expectation is that women must do it. It was fairly man-bashy, so it unsurprisingly got no attention here. It got a great deal of very positive attention in a different forum I belong to. It was a huge positive, eye opening discussion for a great many women who have boatloads of legitimate frustration and anger about this issue and how it negatively impacts their lives.

The degree to which women are expected to deal with the emotions of other people means that women in male dominated environments get dumped on in a way that becomes very problematic for them. Women are not allowed to say "Not my problem." If they try that, there is hell to pay. So I do not believe this is more problematic for women because they value social relationships more. I think it is more problematic because everyone around them will blame them if they do not smooth things over (I mean for other parties -- like mom interceding between fighting children), will cry on their shoulder and expect them to care, etc.

This is one reason tech needs to value diversity: Most men simply don't have substantial skill in dealing with certain things. When you lack social and emotional savvy, it is not uncommon for the fallout to involve things like being sued by people who are mad as hell at you. The way to minimize outcomes like that is to have people on board who will recognize the problem early and act to resolve it before it involves lawyers and bad publicity. But they cannot take effective action if they do not have real power and are not sincerely respected.

Thank you for replying.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#404

Post by test1235 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 5:34 PM UTC

solofounder2 wrote: post #196

zamalek wrote: post #5

We've known this for a while, it boils down to: barbies. Fixing this problem is really, really hard. Assuming I gave my daughters equal access to both barbies and chemistry kits, which would they choose? Kids want to fit in with their friends. Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. What does that lead to? The child choosing their gender stereotype (applies both ways) so that they can fit in. It's what th…

I believe that it likely begins at middle school or high school instead because this is the age an individual can more easily comprehend what computer engineering is actually all about. What I suspect is that generally speaking both men and women start out on equal footing in terms of having access to a computer to learn on and the capability to learn the craft. I suspect they are also on equal footing in terms of bo…

So maybe the answer isn't to get rid of star wars - maybe it's to get girls to stop being so judgemental about each others' hobbies?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#405

Post by ilaksh » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 5:58 PM UTC

bjornstjerne wrote: post #43

> In fact, Dr. Cheryan’s research shows that young men tend not to major in English for the same reasons women don’t pick computer science: They compare their notions of who they are to their stereotypes of English majors and decide they won’t fit in. I wonder how long it will take for humanities departments to adopt a more inclusive culture? Why must our obsessive hand-wringing be be reserved exclusively for compute…

As a white male who was at one time considering a double-major in Computer Science and English (it was a dumb idea for me for several reasons) and who therefore attended both English and Computer Science classes, I think the other issue that was mentioned in the article is more immediate.

Which is that just the sheer numbers of male students or female students in particular subjects is overwhelming. For example, in my American Lit class, there were literally three male students including me. The funny thing in that class was that at least half of the subject matter was basically about how the white male was evil.

But I definitely didn't fit in there, even without the subject matter. And its not that the girls treated me differently, they didn't -- but I knew I was different. Because I was surrounded by girls.

So I think that just the fact of the momentum of having lopsided student counts of males versus females has a huge effect. People do need to fit in and being with people who are really just like them is a big part of that. I think the stereotypes do have a big impact too, but its a double-whammy -- even when girls might not really be influenced by the stereotype, the reality of being the only female or one of a small group of females surrounded by young men in their classes will make them question their place.

So I think the social dynamics have more to do with it than people realize and I think this is a good article.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#406

Post by collyw » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 6:16 PM UTC

icanhackit wrote: post #279

natvod wrote: post #76

Ok so I'm a girl who codes/programs and I'm my take on the issues she raised: Stereotypes about STEM fields putting girls off I can only talk about my own experience but I saw very few negative stereotypes about STEM fields growing up. Definitely not enough to put off girls. However, while I did start coding at a young age, I didn't apply my skill to a work/business purpose until my twenties. Why? I think this issue…

Great post though I'd like to add some thoughts to this bit: the professional/business world as a whole rewards and values masculine traits (competitiveness, talking highly of yourself and accomplishments, etc.) I'd argue those are better classified as extroverted traits rather than masculine traits. Believe me, there are more than a few males that suffer from this being the dominant culture in business (or anywhere)…

Some professions shouldn't treat introversion equally. Software engineering is probably one where it doesn't matter so much but sales and marketing are probably the opposite. (Though interestingly when looking for an appartment a couple of years back, I found the less pushy people far easier to deal with).

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#407

Post by collyw » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 6:20 PM UTC

lagadu wrote: post #368

xerophyte12932 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a sort of culture (in geographic terms) thing to be honest. There was a very nice article somewhere that compared the values of the East and the West. Talking highly of yourself actually comes off as negative in the East. In the East, humility is considered far more respectable, where as the same comes off as weak in the west.

That's not as much a "east vs west" thing as it is an "US vs rest of the world" thing in my experience; as someone who lives on northern Europe.

Thats exactly what I was thinkng. I have read on here that Sweden is a very humble country in term of bragging about achivements in job intervews. It would be interesting to see some data on numbers of women in tech there.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#408

Post by mcguire » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 6:29 PM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #357

mcguire wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schema for gender discussion in tech, version 3.c.ii: 1. An article is posted wherein a woman describes wanting to be in tech and not doing so due to active and passive opposition. 2. Many comments discussing how women aren't in tech because they don't want to be there. I swear, these threads are all straight out of How to Suppress Women's Writing by Joanna Russ (a book I strongly recommend; it's absolutely hi-damn-l…

Are you aware that you are replying to a woman?

Yes.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#409

Post by ElComradio » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 6:51 PM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #337

ElComradio wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most egregious recent example I have seen is Dark Matter. The women are all hyper-capable, responsible and determined. The men are all petty, flawed, impulsive and frequently fighting with each other. It's absurd if you realize what is happening.

Well, try to portray them the other way around and see what reaction you get.

*screws UP a lot.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#410

Post by OrwellianChild » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 7:30 PM UTC

j2kun wrote: post #210

rewqfdsa wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> against its wishes That's the bone of contention here. Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. The point of the article, echoed by many commentators over the past few years, is that it's a "problem" that women are largely staying out of computer science. If you believe in the blank slate theory of human nature, of course it's a problem, because under…

> Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. Ted is the new kid at school, and he wants to make friends. At recess he approaches a group of smiling, laughing boys to introduce himself. But as he nears the group they get quiet. Ted says hi and his name, and mentions he's new and wants to know if they play "tag" here. The boys reply, "we don't play tag, we p…

Thanks for this... It appears that a lot of folks here fail to recognize that they are part of an in-group in the context of tech.

In any other circumstances, this kind of social discouragement would be looked at as a discrimination/exclusion issue. Instead, the prevailing argument seems to be that "they're just different".