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Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

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Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#41

Post by wmf »

jeromegv wrote: post #34
andrewstuart2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were going to change anything, I think the LAN-only policy they employ for Enterprise and Education should probably be the default. That said, instead of changing anything I'd so much rather see MS take this and run with it, working with ISPs to help them understand that this traffic should be exempt (or even rewarded as a bandwidth credit) because it'll lower ISP costs and improve customer satisfaction simlu…

That's pretty much against net neutrality

Not charging for all customer-to-customer or customer-to-cache traffic is pretty neutral. In cable networks, customer-to-customer traffic may increase congestion rather than reducing it, though.

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#42

Post by unsignedint »

dm2 wrote: post #37
unsignedint wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you actually have to specify that your connection is metered in order to that to work? I think it's for tagging things like wireless hotspot, etc.

I'm not sure exactly how it works but there is documentation on what they're calling "Connection Cost". https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/xaml/w... https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/xaml/m... https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh7503...

I wonder how they get those values, considering bandwidth limit parameters can vary depending on contracts even when it is happening to identical networks...

(Perhaps some UI allows users to to put this info, similar to Android settings?)

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#43

Post by lazzlazzlazz »

arbitrage wrote: post #14
dangero wrote: post #11

Wow "Microsoft says that the feature “helps people get updates and apps more quickly if they have a limited or unreliable Internet connection” and “does not slow down your internet connection” as it uses a “limited portion” of idle upload bandwidth." Sorry but Microsoft cannot know that. They can know how much bandwidth your machine has access to on some level, but they cannot know what kind of strain is being put on…

You actually can. Look into TCP slow start and backoff, congestion avoidance, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCP_congestion-avoidance_algor...

No, that's not at the correct level of abstraction. And even then - you may need that idle headroom for latency.

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#44

Post by cbr »

smhenderson wrote: post #32
ctdonath wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Win10 looks a whole lot more subversively aggressive in the quest for "user convenience". Free upgrade! ads in you Start menu. Friends easily join your secured network! by offering password to anyone who asks. Better upgrade distributions! by choking your bandwidth and abusing data caps. Every objectionable feature can be turned off! if you have any idea it's on, and nigh-unto-punitive limitations imposed f…

IIRC, Bill Gates famously sent a memo amounting to "you've got to be kidding me" regarding user experience Wasn't that about microsoft.com? WRT the download page? I don't recall anything about him bashing an actual desktop product. If I'm wrong and you can dig up a link, I'd like to read it. The "trying to download xxx" rant was classic!

I think the email in question starts on p3 of http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/files/library/2003Jangat...

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#45

Post by mscrivo »

Looked at from a different light, if we had more things like this, on by default, it could force ISPs to remove their caps, or at least raise them significantly.

I'd really like to know if the current caps, low as they are, are there for a very good technical reason, or if it's just to protect existing old media outlets. It certainly feel like the later here in Canada.

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#47

Post by wmf »

georgerobinson wrote: post #38
arbitrage wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You actually can. Look into TCP slow start and backoff, congestion avoidance, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCP_congestion-avoidance_algor...

This is not correct. TCP does not know the total amount of bandwidth available on a network link just like it does not know the total amount of unused bandwidth available on the same link - hence the need for additive increase. What will happen is that two TCPs will share the available bandwidth (or close to it) via AIMD. However, if you've ever uploaded a file on an asynchronous Internet connection (i.e. a DSL conne…

Microsoft has been working on something like that for years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_Intelligent_Transfe...

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#48

Post by dangero »

arbitrage wrote: post #14
dangero wrote: post #11

Wow "Microsoft says that the feature “helps people get updates and apps more quickly if they have a limited or unreliable Internet connection” and “does not slow down your internet connection” as it uses a “limited portion” of idle upload bandwidth." Sorry but Microsoft cannot know that. They can know how much bandwidth your machine has access to on some level, but they cannot know what kind of strain is being put on…

You actually can. Look into TCP slow start and backoff, congestion avoidance, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCP_congestion-avoidance_algor...

That does not solve it. A little technical response to your comment. The linked wikipedia page describes how TCP detects appropriate and safe bandwidth to use for transmission using 2 main techniques: 1. Detection of how long it takes to receive a round trip ACK message 2. Detection of dropped packets

Neither of those mechanisms guarantee that the client bandwidth has negligible effect on upstream data links or the bandwidth of other clients sharing those connections. The detection mechanisms are completely self focused on achieving the highest rate of transmission possible and correcting any changes to network reliability over time. They cannot create a reliable picture of overall bandwidth or the exact impact on other clients.

Re: Windows 10 uses your bandwidth to send other people updates

#49

Post by pointernil »

Am I the only one having "issues" with Enterprises deciding to turn on usage of MY resources for their benefit by default? aka opt-out vs opt-in? I mean how much bandwidth and connected costs ms things to save themselves by this feature?

Hyperbole: what's next? Making my machine crack some crypto in a swarm? mining coins?

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