A solution to the Uber and Airbnb problems that no one will like • Hacker News Board

Re: A solution to the Uber and Airbnb problems that no one will like

#41

Post by jaredhansen » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 9:17 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #22

danhak wrote: post #17

Uber's problems are not Airbnb's problems, and I find this continued trend of always mentioning the two in the same breath when it comes to regulation quite baffling. Opposition to Uber is a clear case of regulatory capture. Every negative outcome that regulation is meant to mitigate (accountability, safety, reliability, discrimination, non-predatory pricing) is better served by Uber (and two-factor location tracking…

Sorry but there a bunch of reasons to dislike Uber, from how they use the information they gather of you and your location, to all price manipulation it does with surge pricing. Surge pricing is so intransparent that Im 100% sure that has been gamed against the consumer and the drivers in favor of Uber. Not only that, Uber doesnt tell you how much it costs while its going which is also a huge disadvantage for the con…

Wait, what? I don't want to have a flamewar over Uber here, but most of this isn't even a little bit true:

>surge pricing is so intransparent that Im 100% sure that has been gamed against the consumer and drivers in favor of Uber

I guess this isn't "false" since you're just stating your belief, but if it's totally opaque to you, then how can you be so sure? I mean, OK, I guess, but... [citation needed].

>Uber doesn't tell you how much it costs

What? Yes it does - it tells you up front the multiple you'll pay, and even makes you manually type it in to confirm before your ride is started.

>Who knows what happens between what you paid to Uber and what the driver received?

The driver gets the same 80% that they get during non-surge times. That's why surge pricing works: it summons more drivers to the street by paying them more.

This is all very publicly known stuff; I don't understand your complaints here. By all means, don't ride it if you don't like it, and criticism is fair game, but try to get the basic facts straight.

Re: A solution to the Uber and Airbnb problems that no one will like

#42

Post by norea-armozel » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 9:19 PM UTC

fiatmoney wrote: post #19

norea-armozel wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absence of any data to keep Uber and Airbnb accountable is the problem. The current regulatory climate effectively black boxes the entire situation. Uber can cut corners in legal grey areas because the governments have no clue what actually is going on said areas. If they did, then regulators would be able to act (fine, issue injunctions to stop service, and etc), but obviously they can't because of what I've men…

The fact that no one notices or cares when the regulations are broken strongly indicates the regulations have no useful effect.

I agree up to a point. It's pretty clear that regulations in certain spheres like car and food safety have largely created a culture that doesn't universally cut corners. Then again, killing off a good portion of your customer base would do the same thing I guess as no one would want to buy your products if they have a good chance of dying from them.

Re: A solution to the Uber and Airbnb problems that no one will like

#43

Post by snowwrestler » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 9:25 PM UTC

haberman wrote: post #7

Daishiman wrote: post #3

Ahh, yes, the Randian ideology of the self-regulating data-driven, no-bullshit enterprise, because governments are Big and Bad and will stifle the hardworking man in their attempts to do right for society.

Did you read the article? It's not about self-regulation. It's about government regulation based on real-time data provided by private enterprise.

Regulation is based on social goals, like "people in wheelchairs should be able to get a cab as easily as people without wheelchairs."

Real time data can certainly help with policing compliance, but the data is not the basis for the regulation. We don't need real time data to discover that disabled folks have a right to get around too.

Re: A solution to the Uber and Airbnb problems that no one will like

#44

Post by wrkng » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 9:54 PM UTC

danhak wrote: post #17

Uber's problems are not Airbnb's problems, and I find this continued trend of always mentioning the two in the same breath when it comes to regulation quite baffling. Opposition to Uber is a clear case of regulatory capture. Every negative outcome that regulation is meant to mitigate (accountability, safety, reliability, discrimination, non-predatory pricing) is better served by Uber (and two-factor location tracking…

I like the way Kim-Mai Cutler ties them together: techcrunch.com/2015/07/22/uber-airbnb-and-the-conflict-between-policys-ratchet-effect-and-techs-accelerating-speed/ -- the connection being the strain they both put on public infrastructure, and the extent to which they test existing regulations which were designed for another era

Re: A solution to the Uber and Airbnb problems that no one will like

#45

Post by wdewind » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 9:55 PM UTC

fweespeech wrote: post #37

oh_sigh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percentage of units on Airbnb do you think are actually illegal sublets?

http://nypost.com/2014/04/21/two-thirds-of-citys-airbnb-rent... > Nearly two-thirds of the city apartments recently listed on Airbnb were being offered in violation of the law, an analysis by state authorities has found. > The study of data from the subletting service’s own Web site showed 64 percent of its 19,500-plus offerings for Jan. 31 covered an “entire apartment,” says an affidavit from the state Attorney Gene…

Yep. And then you need to multiply that by the fact that most of their business undoubtedly comes from major metro areas, in which almost all have laws which make AirBnB illegal.

Re: A solution to the Uber and Airbnb problems that no one will like

#46

Post by maxmax » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 9:56 PM UTC

exelius wrote: post #40

This article makes an assumption that regulation is a tool used to protect consumers. While the rhetoric may be to make it sound that way, most regulation exists to protect incumbents who stand to lose money. This is just how governments have always worked; which is why driving accountability in government is so hard.

When incumbents have invested capital specifically to comply with regulations, it makes sense that the incumbents will demand that the regulations are applied equitably.

Regulators tend to be held highly accountable to the community they regulate.

Re: A solution to the Uber and Airbnb problems that no one will like

#47

Post by wrkng » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 9:57 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #12

This essay has some interesting analysis contrasting the differences between the model of licensing/guild vs crowdsourced reviews. However, analyzing that aspect misses the point. The heated issues around Uber is economics and how the pieces of the pie are cut up. Explaining how new technologies allow a different trust model to emerge is irrelevant to the French taxi driver throwing bricks at Uber cars or DiBlasio's…

(author of the post here)

There are issues on a number of levels. One is "public safety" which is essentially the licensing issue. Another is externalities like traffic, which aren't about licensing for safety but more about regulating for other impacts. Then, there are the economic / labor issues, which deserve their own consideration.

Re: A solution to the Uber and Airbnb problems that no one will like

#48

Post by wrkng » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 9:59 PM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #11

haberman wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? It's not about self-regulation. It's about government regulation based on real-time data provided by private enterprise.

Yes. There's no way a data-driven company would give out its crown jewels for regulation just like that. Hell if I had a data-driven company I would definitely not trust anyone with the secrecy of said data. And the receiving end of said data should have little reason to trust me either. I think governments still have a lot to do as far as taking decisions based on collected data. However, we're slowly getting there.…

The trick to releasing data is to provide the right incentives.

For example, relaxing the traditional regulation in exchange for data.

Or, releasing the platforms for some types of intermediary liability in exchange for the data

Agree that absent of a proper incentive there's no way this could come about

Re: A solution to the Uber and Airbnb problems that no one will like

#49

Post by wrkng » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 10:00 PM UTC

s73v3r wrote: post #30

Can we stop referring to business models which choose to simply skirt or ignore the law as "innovation"? I'm pretty sure the Mafia has been doing that for decades.

(author of the post here)

Sure, that's true

But what's also true is that we will continue to see things -- things that are perfectly acceptable to society, or at least will come to be that way -- that are out of sync with current laws and regulations. So the question is how do we get there. Clearly every innovation is not positive, but many are, and we want to give ourselves the opportunity to try things and learn from them.

Re: A solution to the Uber and Airbnb problems that no one will like

#50

Post by littletimmy » Thu, Jul 23, 2015, 10:04 PM UTC

danhak wrote: post #17

Uber's problems are not Airbnb's problems, and I find this continued trend of always mentioning the two in the same breath when it comes to regulation quite baffling. Opposition to Uber is a clear case of regulatory capture. Every negative outcome that regulation is meant to mitigate (accountability, safety, reliability, discrimination, non-predatory pricing) is better served by Uber (and two-factor location tracking…

What about worker exploitation? Not considering employees as employees, refusing to pay benefits, skirting around labor laws?