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The end of capitalism has begun

theguardian.com

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Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#41

Post by serve_yay »

vegancap wrote: post #17

The author assumes we have 'capitalism' to begin with. Even talks about big banks etc. Secondly, he's citing 'information technology' as being the death of 'capitalism'. An industry, arguably the most aggressively capitalistic. Then he talks about corporate monopolies (anyone who's read economics 101 would tell you corporate monopolies are rarely result of unadulterated capitalism, but rather state corporatism). He m…

This is the fundamentalist reply - the same reply proponents of socialism give when confronted with the horrors committed by Stalin and others during the 20th century. It wasn't real socialism, you see.

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#42

Post by WalterSear »

vegancap wrote: post #17

The author assumes we have 'capitalism' to begin with. Even talks about big banks etc. Secondly, he's citing 'information technology' as being the death of 'capitalism'. An industry, arguably the most aggressively capitalistic. Then he talks about corporate monopolies (anyone who's read economics 101 would tell you corporate monopolies are rarely result of unadulterated capitalism, but rather state corporatism). He m…

Capitalism might not look the way you would like it to look, but it's still Capitalism.

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#43

Post by EthanHeilman »

>Second, information is corroding the market’s ability to form prices correctly. That is because markets are based on scarcity while information is abundant. The system’s defence mechanism is to form monopolies – the giant tech companies – on a scale not seen in the past 200 years, yet they cannot last. By building business models and share valuations based on the capture and privatisation of all socially produced information, such firms are constructing a fragile corporate edifice at odds with the most basic need of humanity, which is to use ideas freely.

This is a fascinating dynamic. How do you charge for information when nearly anyone can replicate it for free?

* Novelty - sure you can get civ4 for 2 dollars, but civ5 is "more desirable".

* Punishment - hexrays blacklisting engineers that use IDApro without a license.

* Technical - DRM it is only mildly effective, but architectural solutions such as gmail or WoW have a low piracy rate.

* Rewards - benefits to compliance, such as steam backing up your saved games and giving you hats.

If a nation were to completely ignore IP law would that provide a competitive advantage to that nation?

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#44

Post by _red »

[deleted] wrote: post #21
vegancap wrote: post #17

The author assumes we have 'capitalism' to begin with. Even talks about big banks etc. Secondly, he's citing 'information technology' as being the death of 'capitalism'. An industry, arguably the most aggressively capitalistic. Then he talks about corporate monopolies (anyone who's read economics 101 would tell you corporate monopolies are rarely result of unadulterated capitalism, but rather state corporatism). He m…

[deleted]

Ma Bell? You are actually trying to use that as an example of a "free market created monopoly"?

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#45

Post by ef4 »

valar_m wrote: post #7

This statement seems odd to me: Second, information is corroding the market’s ability to form prices correctly. That is because markets are based on scarcity while information is abundant. I don't understand how this follows. Wouldn't having more information mean that prices form more correctly?

Yes. The author's statement is malformed.

Lots of people get themselves into trouble pontificating on how the flow of information makes markets work or not work. What they often fail to notice is that there is also a market for information itself, and that it's not really necessary to special case "information" differently than any other necessary input.

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#46

Post by angrybits »

Retra wrote: post #16
angrybits wrote: post #6

From the fine article: > individualism replaced collectivism and solidarity I find myself wondering if I am part of a remaining few who treasure that. I value self-sufficiency over dependency, moreso as I get older. I have come to realize that there can rarely be an imposed collective benefit that didn't come at the expense of at least one individual. The answer to "is it worth it?" will be dependent on which one you…

Self sufficiency and dependency are not a 1-dimensional parameter. You can be self sufficient in some aspects, and dependent in others, and each of us can be like this in different ways. Both aspects have their merits, and it is very easy to see that those merits are fundamental necessities. Governance is hard.

Agreed, I just meant I choose self-sufficiency over dependence when possible/practical. As I get older, it seems to impact my choices more and more--and I'm not (just) talking about basic necessities, it's also guiding my investment decisions and property purchases.

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#47

Post by vegancap »

larsiusprime wrote: post #40
vegancap wrote: post #17

The author assumes we have 'capitalism' to begin with. Even talks about big banks etc. Secondly, he's citing 'information technology' as being the death of 'capitalism'. An industry, arguably the most aggressively capitalistic. Then he talks about corporate monopolies (anyone who's read economics 101 would tell you corporate monopolies are rarely result of unadulterated capitalism, but rather state corporatism). He m…

"capitalism" as casually used can be broken down into a bunch of discrete, sometimes contradictory concepts, here's just a few off the top of my head: ---------- 1. "CAPITAL"-ism with a capital "C": the policy that when labor and capital do something together, capital should get the bigger share of the return. 2. "Laissez-faire": a market that has as little regulation from the government as possible. 3. "Free market"…

I guess what I was referring to by 'capitalism' was actually 'free-market' by that list. I should've been more concise. The author was attacking 'capitalism' as a whole, so I wanted to refute his general argument against market-oriented economies

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#48

Post by yummyfajitas »

Shivetya wrote: post #34
dpweb wrote: post #2

It's interesting the Greece and 2008 global crises are usually brought up, but important to note that with capitalism comes a need for responsibility - especially regarding debt, and those failures were a result of irresponsiblity on the part of the governments and actors involved - not a defect of the capitalist system itself. In both cases, taking on massive debt and quite simply, living beyond one's or a state's m…

The problem with Greece isn't capitalism, that much is obvious. The problem is the EU was designed to fail. It was created in such a way to appease the dominant economic countries by guaranteeing the EU would not be a transfer union. This all but doomed weaker economies from the get go. Tied to one currency they lost the most effective means of combating budgetary and economic issues. Worse, as they become weaker it…

Preventing the EU from being a transfer union is not what doomed the weaker economies; the fact that some of the weaker economies tried to turn it into such did.

The more capitalist weaker economies (note: most are poorer than Greece) seem to be doing just fine.

https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#49

Post by shkkmo »

vegancap wrote: post #17

The author assumes we have 'capitalism' to begin with. Even talks about big banks etc. Secondly, he's citing 'information technology' as being the death of 'capitalism'. An industry, arguably the most aggressively capitalistic. Then he talks about corporate monopolies (anyone who's read economics 101 would tell you corporate monopolies are rarely result of unadulterated capitalism, but rather state corporatism). He m…

> Most of the fluffy scenarios he describes, whereby private individuals make voluntary, mutually beneficial agreements with each other, is almost the very definition of capitalism!

No, that is the definition of a free market. Capitalism is a framework of ownership that operates in markets of varying degrees of freedom.

A barter economy is a free market, but not usually a capitalistic one.

The author is pointing out ways that the free market is starting to outgrow it's reliance on the ownership framework of capitalism and how capitalism's framework of ownership has problems dealing with the valuation and ownership of information.

I suspect we will increasingly see the old capitalistic structures use governments and force to hold the line against the free market.

Re: The end of capitalism has begun

#50

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

SixSigma wrote: post #31
lbidircitkghd wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>anyone who's read economics 101 would tell you corporate monopolies are rarely result of unadulterated capitalism, but rather state corporatism Corporatist despotism is the logical conclusion of any laissez-faire capitalist economy just as Stalinism is the logical conclusion of any Marxist economy. Businesses are sticky and over time will tend to clump together, for efficiency reasons, into larger businesses. Once t…

Some might suggest that imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism.

Or vice versa.

Imperialism is the goal, capitalism is the excuse.

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