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Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#41

Post by tomjen3 »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #6
imaginenore wrote: post #3

It's about time. Greece has been behaving like a gambling addict, asking for money to repay the old debts only to waste them in expensive restaurants, buying iPhones, and gambling even more.

Gambling addict? What an incredibly unfair and childish characterisation. Greece is not a person, Greece is a nation state. It has implemented severe fiscal cutbacks after being forced to by its creditors. Cutbacks which have ruined the country's economy, massively increased poverty, and made it more difficult to pay back its debts. Now its people have voted in a government that wishes to make different reforms. Ones…

That line of reasoning proves too much - If you want to use this argument then you also have to argue that the IMF is more interested in reforms that won't help Greece than a chance to get some its money back - that is that greedy international capitalistic bankers hate Greece more than they love money.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#42

Post by quonn »

radicalbyte wrote: post #31
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How come a poor slovakia should fund the lifestyle of lazy greeks? The Greeks are not lazy. Suffering is not lazy.

They retired at 61, whilst in Northern Europe we've just had to raise the age to 67. They - like the Italians - don't like paying their taxes. http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/02/greeces_g... We should bail them out, but they should also retire at 67, the (existing) final salary pensions should be cut back and they should start paying their taxes.

This claim has been debunked here: http://blog.zeit.de/herdentrieb/2015/06/18/die-griechische-r...

EU data: Greece 64.4 years, Germany: 65.1.

OECD data: Greece 61.9 years vs. Germany 62.1

So it is actually the same.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#43

Post by gizmo »

jeroen94704 wrote: post #21
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gambling addict? What an incredibly unfair and childish characterisation. Greece is not a person, Greece is a nation state. It has implemented severe fiscal cutbacks after being forced to by its creditors. Cutbacks which have ruined the country's economy, massively increased poverty, and made it more difficult to pay back its debts. Now its people have voted in a government that wishes to make different reforms. Ones…

While I am certainly sympathetic to the Greeks for the hardships they have faced and will undoubtedly face in the years to come, it is incredibly unfair to deny the Greeks' own responsibility in all this. This entire mess started with Greece not having its finances in order, and essentially lying about this for years to the rest of the Eurogroup. After it became clear how dire the situation was, the Eurogroup stepped…

Your narrative is mostly incorrect.

- The EU was aware that Greece's finances were not as portrayed. This was an open secret. However, Germany and France were breaking max deficit rules at the time, and they would look like huge hypocrites if they complained about Greece's numbers. So they didn't. Rose colored glasses and political expedience played a huge role here.

- A country can't go bankrupt. They can simply refuse to pay their debts, and because they're a sovereign nation they're in their right to do so.

- When banks lend money to a country it isn't charity. They get interest payments and in exchange risk not getting paid back at all if things go sour. It was astoundingly unwise for banks to lend money to Greece at practically zero interest (as they did during the boom period). Had the banks been responsible, or had the oversight institutions not been asleep at the wheel, this crisis would not have happened.

- The banks who lent to Greece got 90% of the bailout package. Not the people of Greece. So it's not true Greece received "several hundred billion in aid".

- "Some would say it is doubtful whether they are actually effective at all.". It's certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that the austerity policies enforced by the troika were actively harmful. It's delusional to pretend otherwise, given that the GDP shrank so much the debt burden INCREASED as a result.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#44

Post by randomname2 »

ECB statement:

ELA to Greek banks maintained at its current level

- ECB takes note of decision on Greek referendum and the non-prolongation of the EU adjustment programme

- ECB will work closely with Bank of Greece to maintain financial stability

- Emergency liquidity assistance maintained at Friday’s (26 June 2015) level

- Governing Council stands ready to review decision

- Governing Council closely monitoring situation and potential implications for monetary policy stance

The Governing Council of the European Central Bank today welcomed the commitment by ministers from euro area Member States to take all necessary measures to further improve the resilience of euro area economies and to stand ready to take decisive steps to strengthen Economic and Monetary Union.

Following the decision by the Greek authorities to hold a referendum and the non-prolongation of the EU adjustment programme for Greece, the Governing Council declared it will work closely with the Bank of Greece to maintain financial stability.

Given the current circumstances, the Governing Council decided to maintain the ceiling to the provision of emergency liquidity assistance (ELA) to Greek banks at the level decided on Friday (26 June 2015).

The Governing Council stands ready to reconsider its decision.

Mario Draghi, ECB President, said: “We continue to work closely with the Bank of Greece and we strongly endorse the commitment of Member States in pledging to take action to address the fragilities of euro area economies.”

Yannis Stournaras, Governor of the Bank of Greece, said: “The Bank of Greece, as a member of the Eurosystem, will take all measures necessary to ensure financial stability for Greek citizens in these difficult circumstances.”

The Governing Council is closely monitoring the situation in financial markets and the potential implications for the monetary policy stance and for the balance of risks to price stability in the euro area. The Governing Council is determined to use all the instruments available within its mandate.

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/pr/date/2015/html/pr150628.e...

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#45

Post by elmar »

chkuendig wrote: post #24
elmar wrote: post #19

They have to impose capital restrictions fast... What Would Greek Capital Controls Look Like? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-01/how-greek-...

Varoufakis apparently told BBC that the banks might stay closed tomorrow and that capital controls could be imposed. http://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/615112479828348928 edit: scratch that. http://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/615127339102531584

Not imposing capital restrictions is suicide, i don't know if Yanis varoufakis is an economical genius a madman or simply amateurish.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#47

Post by xkarga00 »

jeroen94704 wrote: post #21
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gambling addict? What an incredibly unfair and childish characterisation. Greece is not a person, Greece is a nation state. It has implemented severe fiscal cutbacks after being forced to by its creditors. Cutbacks which have ruined the country's economy, massively increased poverty, and made it more difficult to pay back its debts. Now its people have voted in a government that wishes to make different reforms. Ones…

While I am certainly sympathetic to the Greeks for the hardships they have faced and will undoubtedly face in the years to come, it is incredibly unfair to deny the Greeks' own responsibility in all this. This entire mess started with Greece not having its finances in order, and essentially lying about this for years to the rest of the Eurogroup. After it became clear how dire the situation was, the Eurogroup stepped…

And you really believe that the middle and lower class Greeks ie. "the Greeks" did benefit from that money, right? It's their mistake voting for shady politicians all these years but this situation is a result far away from their powers.

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#49

Post by jmedwards »

jkot wrote: post #39
jmedwards wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is unfair and lazy to characterise a people that way. There is, however, deep structural or cultural issues that causes Greece to have such a massive tax gap: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2013/cr13155.pdf . People may well be working hard, but a significant enough number of people are not contributing enough to the state, yet are demanding (by voting) ever more from it, and leaders seemed to hav…

What is unfair about it? Greek public sector has the same size as France. Pension system is even more generous than Italy. Retirement at 50 with full salary is not uncommon. No, instead of cutting that, they should squeeze even more money on taxes. Even EC is criticizing Greek government for collecting too much money on income tax and VAT. Just for illustration VAT tax on heating oil is 60%, most houses I know just d…

I was agreeing with you; I took your response to be one to a sentiment in this thread that 'Greek people are lazy'

Re: Greece debt crisis: ECB 'to end' bank emergency lending

#50

Post by peteretep »

raesene9 wrote: post #30
randomname2 wrote: post #13

The BBC should know better than this, using "unnamed sources" to quote a rumour as fact. No decision has been made yet, so this is just misinformation. Expect more of this over the next days.

Unfortunately this is extremely common in many countries where politicians and civil servants want something out without having it tied to them. If you've been following the greece coverage, there's been lots of documents leaking from various sources on both sides of the negotiations. Last week when the initial greek proposal and the IMF "red-lined" version were in discussion, both were leaked on the day...

    > in many countries where politicians and civil servants
    > want something out without having it tied to them
I wonder if there are any democracies where this mechanism isn't used
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