In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs • Hacker News Board

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#41

Post by protomyth » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 2:35 PM UTC

sremani wrote: post #13

protomyth wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want the company that receives the H1B to pay an addition tax on the salary that goes to unemployment. It needs to be something above an beyond what is payed for a citizen. After all, the H1B is supposed to have skills that the local workers don't and thus should be worth the extra money.

I would rather burden the employer with additional tax, scrutiny and labor rules. This mechanism is to reset to original intent of acquiring talent rather than cost-saving labor (as currently practiced).

I meant the employer of the H1B needs to pay an additional tax.

> This mechanism is to reset to original intent of acquiring talent rather than cost-saving labor (as currently practiced).

completely agree - also looking at folks who come here to be educated getting work visas.

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#42

Post by geebee » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 3:50 PM UTC

bsder wrote: post #14

learc83 wrote: post #3

H-1Bs are supposed to be used to fill jobs for which qualified Americans can't be found, but to get around this, Disney lays off workers and brings in a consultancy to take over. The consultancy employs the H-1B workers, not Disney. There are so many loopholes that it seems like the only solutions are to either create a well funded agency/department to oversee this, or to increase the price far enough that H-1Bs are…

The solution is for H1-B workers to auto-convert to a green card after 12 months. Period. The company has 12 months to complete a security check and has to fund it itself. Now, if the company really needs a worker brought in on an H1-B, they will be very happy and the H1-B queue will continuously clear itself. However, if all they want is an indentured servant, that will get quashed when the green card arrives. Every…

This would be a huge improvement, though it doesn't address a more fundamental issue: why should tech companies should have the power to bestow temporary residency on workers? This is an unusual aspect to a labor market, especially at this kind of scale.

The justification is that that there is a critical shortage of software developers (at any price? at market rate?) that threatens the US economy, so we should allow corporations to bestow "front of line" privileges on tech workers that other classes of immigrants don't get.

I don't buy it. Why wait a year, why not just award the green card the moment the immigrant shows up. And why require that the immigrant have a job offer from a tech company? In short, why not just let people immigrate, and allow them to enter the job market in response to market signals?

A dental hygenist earns about as much at the median in SF as a software developer. A registered nurse earns quite a bit more. Why not allow immigrants to choose those fields just like US citizens get to? Why force them to study tech fields and work even a year for disney in a tech role to get to come here?

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#43

Post by Veratyr » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 4:29 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #39

Veratyr wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the H1B is supposed to have skills that the local workers don't Given that, wouldn't it make more sense for the extra money to go into education? How is contributing to unemployment going to get Americans more jobs? What about companies that need the skills but can't afford the more expensive workers? If I'm a small startup with a $200k budget for an expert but there are no citizens with the skills available (at al…

> Given that, wouldn't it make more sense for the extra money to go into education? How is contributing to unemployment going to get Americans more jobs? Unemployment is the result and those budgets are stretched these days. In some place unemployment pays for classes. > What about companies that need the skills but can't afford the more expensive workers? If I'm a small startup with a $200k budget for an expert but…

> Unemployment is the result

Unemployment isn't the result of H1B, it's the result of Americans lacking the necessary skills. H1B is also the result of that lack of skill. Yes the H1B is abused but that's a separate issue to what I'm saying.

> and those budgets are stretched these days

Well you can either increase the budget or reduce the unemployment. One results in unproductive money drain, the other results in more people performing productive tasks.

> Why do you think its ok to not pay people the market rate just so you can benefit?

I'm not saying not to pay the market rate, I'm saying there's no market. There are 10 people with the skills I need in the country. All of them are at megacorps and being paid $200k, which is the same I'd offer. I'm just a small company, I can't compete with a megacorp.

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#44

Post by th0waway » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 5:01 PM UTC

bsder wrote: post #14

learc83 wrote: post #3

H-1Bs are supposed to be used to fill jobs for which qualified Americans can't be found, but to get around this, Disney lays off workers and brings in a consultancy to take over. The consultancy employs the H-1B workers, not Disney. There are so many loopholes that it seems like the only solutions are to either create a well funded agency/department to oversee this, or to increase the price far enough that H-1Bs are…

The solution is for H1-B workers to auto-convert to a green card after 12 months. Period. The company has 12 months to complete a security check and has to fund it itself. Now, if the company really needs a worker brought in on an H1-B, they will be very happy and the H1-B queue will continuously clear itself. However, if all they want is an indentured servant, that will get quashed when the green card arrives. Every…

nope, just means they have 12 months to get the next indentured servant lined up. lose/lose, still.

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#45

Post by protomyth » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 5:26 PM UTC

Veratyr wrote: post #43

protomyth wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given that, wouldn't it make more sense for the extra money to go into education? How is contributing to unemployment going to get Americans more jobs? Unemployment is the result and those budgets are stretched these days. In some place unemployment pays for classes. > What about companies that need the skills but can't afford the more expensive workers? If I'm a small startup with a $200k budget for an expert but…

> Unemployment is the result Unemployment isn't the result of H1B, it's the result of Americans lacking the necessary skills. H1B is also the result of that lack of skill. Yes the H1B is abused but that's a separate issue to what I'm saying. > and those budgets are stretched these days Well you can either increase the budget or reduce the unemployment. One results in unproductive money drain, the other results in mor…

> Unemployment isn't the result of H1B, it's the result of Americans lacking the necessary skills.

No, the workers had the skills and were doing the job. Its the result of a company wanting those same skills cheaper. Unemployment is the result.

> I'm not saying not to pay the market rate, I'm saying there's no market. There are 10 people with the skills I need in the country. All of them are at megacorps and being paid $200k, which is the same I'd offer. I'm just a small company, I can't compete with a megacorp.

If there are truly only 10 people who can do what you need then that is what the H1B program was for. If the skill is valuable maybe you need to figure out other incentives than salary.

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#46

Post by Veratyr » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 5:37 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #45

Veratyr wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unemployment is the result Unemployment isn't the result of H1B, it's the result of Americans lacking the necessary skills. H1B is also the result of that lack of skill. Yes the H1B is abused but that's a separate issue to what I'm saying. > and those budgets are stretched these days Well you can either increase the budget or reduce the unemployment. One results in unproductive money drain, the other results in mor…

> Unemployment isn't the result of H1B, it's the result of Americans lacking the necessary skills. No, the workers had the skills and were doing the job. Its the result of a company wanting those same skills cheaper. Unemployment is the result. > I'm not saying not to pay the market rate, I'm saying there's no market. There are 10 people with the skills I need in the country. All of them are at megacorps and being pa…

> No, the workers had the skills and were doing the job. Its the result of a company wanting those same skills cheaper. Unemployment is the result.

That's abuse of the H1B, something that I acknowledge but is a separate issue. I acknowledge that abuse of the H1B results in unemployment. I'm arguing for the H1B as it was intended.

> If there are truly only 10 people who can do what you need then that is what the H1B program was for.

Exactly.

> If the skill is valuable maybe you need to figure out other incentives than salary.

I can't hope to compete with a megacorp and that's my point. No matter what I offer they can outdo it. My only hope is to find employees outside the megacorp which means employees outside the US.

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#47

Post by Thimothy » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 5:50 PM UTC

aNoob7000 wrote: post #34

tsotha wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twenty years? No way. Maybe five or ten years for something like nursing. Programmers can learn a language in a few months and become professionally proficient in two years or so. It's a lot closer to factory work than rocket science. Beyond that there are a bunch of 50+ year old guys with perfectly good skills who can't get jobs because they don't fit the common (erroneous) mental picture of a software developer. Th…

I'm not sure I would agree with you that programming is closer to factory work than rocket science. If programming were closer to factory work, Disney would have outsourced it 10-15 years ago to China. :)

You mean, like IBM has done with India.

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#48

Post by geebee » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 6:29 PM UTC

jahewson wrote: post #17

tsotha wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The H-1B visa should be eliminated. It's been nothing but a scam from the start. If there's a demand for a certain type of skill high wages will attract people to the field.

High wages are not enough. It takes time to train people. It can take years. Demand for experienced workers can't be satisfied with newly trained workers. Demand for skilled workers can very easily exceed their supply. A good example of this problem currently is nurses in the Bay Area. They are very well paid however there is still a shortage because there isn't enough teaching available. The teachers are of course e…

This is a fair point, one of the strongest arguments to be made for very specific work visas.

The problem, then, is how to allocate those visas without suppressing the market signals that would, long term, bring pay into balance.

All kinds of differences of opinion on this one from reasonably people. I tend to take a very suspicious view point on government intervention to control prices. I look at high level tech jobs, and to me, it looks like they generally require majoring in the hardest undergraduate subjects, and often (sometimes preferred, sometimes required) require gaining admission to top programs with high standardized test scores and GPAs, and finishing grad programs with much higher attrition rates than elite med, law, or business schools (UCSF's medical school attrition rate is below 0.5%, whereas top PhD programs often have attrition rates of 50%. MS programs are harder to find data on - all I could get was aggregate (rather than elite) and it was behind a pay wall, but I believe it was 25-30%).

Although an MS is shorter than a med degree, and a PhD is about the same amount of time (considering residency), keep in mind, we're also talking about a "shortage", so I think it's reasonable to take a generous view of what compensation should be. I'd say people with grad degrees in math heavy STEM fields - even MS degrees, should probably be on a par in terms of salary and career stability with medical specialties before we should be talking too seriously about a "shortage" that wouldn't simply be explained by uncompetitive wages and working conditions. So overall, if it's relatively straightforward to earn over $300k a year with a grad degree from a top 20 engineering school, then I'd be more open to the notion of a "shortage". Otherwise, I'd say that people are just making economically rational decisions to stay out of STEM jobs, considering the skill and academic ability required to get grad degrees in this field.

I know that would cause sticker shock, but I'd say that if the average mid-career industry salary is much below 300k for these degree holders (to say nothing of job stability), I have trouble believing it isn't a crutch to avoid competing for workers who can participate freely in labor markets.

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#49

Post by tsotha » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 8:07 PM UTC

aNoob7000 wrote: post #34

tsotha wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twenty years? No way. Maybe five or ten years for something like nursing. Programmers can learn a language in a few months and become professionally proficient in two years or so. It's a lot closer to factory work than rocket science. Beyond that there are a bunch of 50+ year old guys with perfectly good skills who can't get jobs because they don't fit the common (erroneous) mental picture of a software developer. Th…

I'm not sure I would agree with you that programming is closer to factory work than rocket science. If programming were closer to factory work, Disney would have outsourced it 10-15 years ago to China. :)

Companies large and small have been outsourcing development work for decades.

Re: In Turnabout, Disney Cancels Tech Worker Layoffs

#50

Post by bsder » Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 11:07 PM UTC

gohrt wrote: post #25

bsder wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is for H1-B workers to auto-convert to a green card after 12 months. Period. The company has 12 months to complete a security check and has to fund it itself. Now, if the company really needs a worker brought in on an H1-B, they will be very happy and the H1-B queue will continuously clear itself. However, if all they want is an indentured servant, that will get quashed when the green card arrives. Every…

Not everyone ones: American citizens who compete with immigrants for jobs. Or H1B immigrant's compete for overall quota spots with other immigrants, so those lose.

I compete with H1-Bs every day. I don't have a problem competing with the ones who have green cards since their salary isn't artificially deflated. I do have a problem competing with an H1-B who is 40% of my salary and is stuck that way for 5+ years (even if an H1-B is hired at mostly market rate--the lack of raise in a hot sector drops their relative salary very quickly).