Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well I guess that comes down to a moral choice. Would you be okay with "making out great" and becoming rich if it meant that other people had to work in 130 degree heat for 18 hours a day in order to build the buildings you live and work in, and had their wages withheld and passport confiscated by their employer? Would you think that you had made a bad choice?
That is exactly the question I am asking. If someone gave you (and I don't mean you in particular) the chance to make all this money with minimal effort on your part, are you so sure you'd turn it down? To answer this question regarding myself, I don't know. For example, I wear clothes and shoes that are obviously made using horrible labour in third-world countries. Also, what are the people who already live there su…
The dark side of Dubai
41–50 of 72 posts
Re: The dark side of Dubai
#42This is no surprise. If you build a whole investment empire based solely on the value of housing, those cheap bricks you build turn against you one day. No social investments, no technology, just plain luxury and housing. Have you seen that artificial palm drawn on the sea? For me, that symbolizes how artificial things were in Dubai, and good old karma gave them what they deserved.
More proof that no country can survive without producing any of tangible value.
Re: The dark side of Dubai
#43Why anyone would relocate to a country living in the dark ages with Medieval laws is beyond me. Commit adultry? Go to prison. Eat a poppy-seed bagel in another airport on your way to Dubai and leave a seed on your shirt? Same thing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234786.stm
Fuck Dubai. No flashy tourist attraction is worth that kind of risk.
Re: The dark side of Dubai
#44The more I read about Dubai's "debt is illegal" policy, the more counter-productive it seems. If you lose your job, the employer has to notify the bank. The bank freezes your accounts and you are prevented from leaving the country. Thus, you are left with absolutely zero way to ever pay off your debt. What's the proper economics term for this? Something along the lines of a self-fulfilling negative spiral.
Europe did it back in the day. If you were a debtor you were thrown in debtors' prison until you paid off your debt... but you can't earn any money while you are in debtors' prison... Catch-22. I'm assuming that it's meant as a deterrent to try and prevent people from getting into debt in the first place. Not that it's a very good (or humane) idea though.
Re: The dark side of Dubai
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fuck Dubai. No flashy tourist attraction is worth that kind of risk.
That's unfair. Thanks to terrorism the US & most western countries now laws that can decimate your privacy & can hold you in prison with little to no evidence. We put up with it because we know that by the numbers there's little chance of it affecting us as individuals. The same goes for Dubai. Even those laws exist, you're unlikely to be affected by them and most of the time the police look the other way even if you…
The people who have least to worry from the state paranoia are the privileged classes, races, and ethnicities (ie. wealthy whites). But if you're part of the non-white underclass (nevermind Muslim), you can bet the post-9/11 paranoia and increased vigor of the police state is going to be of some concern (sometimes to the degree of fleeing the country if you're able).
Something similar is probably the case in Dubai. If you're wealthy enough, and/or have enough connections, you're probably not going to have to worry too much (except maybe about the polluted beaches, if you insist on taking a dip in the sea outside your hotel room) as long as you don't try to interfere in their politics. But the worry of running afoul of their draconian laws and of being exploited by their oppressive system increases and becomes more legitimate the lower on the totem pole you get.
Re: The dark side of Dubai
#46I've spent a bit of time in Dubai. It's not quite what the author makes it out to be. I've heard about the abuses - there are some and it's horrible - but it's not indicative of the way most people are running their businesses in Dubai. A mentor of mine from England headed up a project management firm there. The workers under him made 20-40 times what they could make back home in South Asia, in places where the malno…
The government seems to be complicit in these abuses, so it's a good idea to support the government just because there are some people not committing abuses?
> A mentor of mine from England headed up a project management firm there. The workers under him made 20-40 times what they could make back home in South Asia, in places where the malnourishment/literally-starving-to-death rate is sometimes 30%.
So... because some people are making a lot of money it's ok for others to suffer... ? Does what your mentor does/did in Dubai somehow negate what is happening to these other workers?
> An acquaintance of mine who worked in Dubai had a Chinese girlfriend who was a stewardess on Emirates Airlines. Emirates is pretty incredible in that they pay the same amounts to their staff regardless of country of origin - almost all airlines and cruiselines pay much less to people from China, the Philippines, etc, than they would to someone from France or Australia. Emirates pays everyone the same. The acquaintence's Chinese girlfriend bought one house every couple months back in her home province in China on her wages. Her family was becoming incredibly wealthy.
If the wealth of Dubai is build upon the backs of slave-labor, then she is raising her family out of poverty with 'blood money.' She is knocking others down in an attempt to lift herself up, though indirectly.
> A company taking someone's passport and changing their contract is really horrible fraud, a horrific crime. But that's an indictment of the whole society - this kind of nonsense happens in the West too.
It is if the society decides to ignore it. It's not necessarily what happens in a society that should define it, but how a society reacts to these events. If this 'nonesense' is happening, and the people in Dubai are happy to turn the other way and pretend it doesn't exist, is this somehow acceptable behavior? I'm sure there are plenty of people there that are willing to ignore such abuses because they are making so much money.
> Take South Korea and the United States - a common story is a girl gets promised high paid waitressing/hostessing job, gets sold into slavery. This is a terrible thing, and should be stopped - but does that mean that United States is running on slave labor? No. A few bad people is not an indictment of an entire society.
How common is this though? Point me to data/articles/etc on this practice. I somehow think that these South Korean slaves are being sent into the 'sex trade' or becoming 'slave maids.' While this is nothing that should be ignored you would have a hard time making the case the a society is 'built' or 'based on' sex workers or maids (as opposed to maintenance/construction workers).
> For a lot of very poor people, Dubai helped pull their families out of poverty. The did some amazing things there. Those things won't be mentioned in a piece like this. People who would be living on subsistence farming in China build houses and manage property after working in Dubai. People from Sri Lanka, India, and Eastern Europe can support their whole families and save money after working there for a couple years, in places where there is no opportunity and everyone is literally starving to death.
I've already mentioned it, but it bears mentioning again. If this wealth is built on the backs of slaves, these people are (indirectly) throwing others under the bus in an attempt to improve their lot in life.
> The author doesn't care about the good.
I think that the point is that the good needs to out-weigh the bad. If 1 in 5 people coming from poverty in a 3rd world country 'hit it big' in Dubai while 4 in 5 people end up in deplorable working conditions with no chance of escape, is there really a point to mentioning that there is 'some good' happening?
> The opinion piece was written before doing any research or interviews, the research and interviews were set to tell the story.
You have no evidence for this, and at this point you're just making baseless accusations as a way to somehow bolster the point that you're trying to drive home. Please don't try to back up your argument by making unfounded statements.
No offense, but you're also failing to realize that you're railing on an 'opinion' piece while offering in return nothing but your own opinion based on anecdotal evidence. You can't use your own anecdotal evidence to disprove someone else's anecdotal evidence except in specific cases (i.e. you went to the same 'slave worker' camp at around the same time but the conditions were vastly different).
> There's some bad stuff there? Oh yeah, absolutely. There's bad stuff in the USA too
No offense, but from the description of the working/living conditions of these people, illegal Mexican immigration workers in th USA that are held 'captive' by their employers have it good.
Re: The dark side of Dubai
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
Europe did it back in the day. If you were a debtor you were thrown in debtors' prison until you paid off your debt... but you can't earn any money while you are in debtors' prison... Catch-22. I'm assuming that it's meant as a deterrent to try and prevent people from getting into debt in the first place. Not that it's a very good (or humane) idea though.
The mafia will just kill you. That makes even less sense since they have to spend money on a hitman.
Re: The dark side of Dubai
#48A recent re-appraisal based on the idea that loads of journalists were bitching too much about it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/29/dubai-world-dese...
Re: The dark side of Dubai
#49This is from April, btw.
As someone who read it in April, I'm glad it's still being shared.
Re: The dark side of Dubai
#50I've spent a bit of time in Dubai. It's not quite what the author makes it out to be. I've heard about the abuses - there are some and it's horrible - but it's not indicative of the way most people are running their businesses in Dubai. A mentor of mine from England headed up a project management firm there. The workers under him made 20-40 times what they could make back home in South Asia, in places where the malno…
That surprises me. That isn't how it works for any of the airlines flying out of Canada, that is illegal here. The US has much more relaxed laws than we do, and a number of issues with respect to African Americans, but I'd be more than a little surprised if that was standard practice there.
What about European airlines like those flying out of England or Germany. Do they pay less to Chinese flight attendants? My guess would be that if they were legally able to work they would receive the same pay in countries like Germany and England. Am I mistaken?
I'm curious.