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A major milestone has been reached in our Brain Preservation Prize

blog.brainpreservation.org

41–50 of 59 posts

Re: A major milestone has been reached in our Brain Preservation Prize

#41
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming the phrase "a sufficiently advanced AI" answers anything at all. Presumably you're assuming if the information is there at all - if the necessary data hasn't been scrambled beyond the noise floor of the scrambling process - then there's something for magic (because you're really talking about magic here) to work with. So, please (a) set out your claim with precision (b) back up your claim. * What is t…

I'm quite sure I've read somewhere that information cannot be lost in the absolute sense, lost to us: yes, lost irrevocably and irrefutably: no. In that sense, 'a sufficiently advanced AI' is not magic, because when people say that they definitively have something in mind, at least the people I often discuss this with do. In short: if you're smart(fast, precise, determined) enough to look at the individual molecules…

>I'm quite sure I've read somewhere that information cannot be lost in the absolute sense,

Quantum information is, in some decently well-regarded theories, a conserved quantity. Classical information is not, in any major theory.

>In short: if you're smart(fast, precise, determined) enough to look at the individual molecules of a puddle of brain-goo. And if you can infer the way it has collapsed by ray tracing those molecules back through how they collided with each other/the walls of your mold then it should be possible to reconstruct the spatial form of the brains at least. That's a pretty big IF obviously, but equally obviously not impossible. If only you can look deep/far/fast enough.

Again: classical information is not a conserved quantity. A puddle of brain-goo will likely tell you more than a puddle of non-brain goo about the person who used to be that brain, but there is a very strong limit to what it can tell you. You cannot, so to speak, extrapolate the universe from one small piece of fairy cake.

(Disclaimer: I have previously donated to the Brain Preservation Foundation precisely because I think the issue deserves investigation by mainstream, non-wishful scientists so that people who want to... whatever it is they're planning on, can do it.)

>Many knowledgeable people are making guesses based on our current understanding of intelligence/computation/AI, and then extrapolating. The paradoxical thing is that on the one hand AI-doomsday speakers tell us no to anthropomorphise (for good reasons) with the motives of an AI, but on the other hand apply human reasoning/understanding to predict such machines/patterns.

The thing about "sufficiently advanced AI" is that it dodges the basic issues. A sufficiently advanced AI is just a machine for crunching data into generalized theories. It can only learn theories in the presence of data. Admittedly, the more data it gets from a broader variety of domains, the more it can form abstract theories that give usefully informed prior knowledge about what it can expect to find in new domains. But if it can use detailed knowledge about brains-in-general to reconstruct a puddle of brain-goo into a solid model of a human brain, solid enough to "make it live", that's not because of some ontologically basic "smartness" about the AI, it's because the AI has the right kind of learning machinery for crunching data about specific and general things together to allow it to learn and utilize very large sums of domain knowledge. These sums could possibly larger than any individual human might obtain in the course of a single 20-year education, from kindergarten to PhD, but the key factor in "AI's" understanding of the natural sciences will ultimately be experimental data and domain knowledge derived from experimental data.

Re: A major milestone has been reached in our Brain Preservation Prize

#42
post #6

Note that this approach should be compared with cryonics, which attempts to vitrify the brain and preserve it in a glass-like state at liquid nitrogen temperatures: http://www.alcor.org/ Personally I have some reservations about the plastination approach to personal longevity. Depending on your philosophical views on the nature of consciousness, it may be that under this procedure you would die and cease to exist, wh…

To recap for everyone joining the conversation afresh: our intuitions about selfhood, continual consciousness, and personal identity probably don't make any sense at all if applied to this kind of question. The right thing to do isn't trying to repair the intuitions, but instead trying to figure out which of the unintuitive possibilities we happen to like.

Re: A major milestone has been reached in our Brain Preservation Prize

#43
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would have been a somewhat less ridiculous explanation for The Matrix. "Oh, those vats full of humans? They're our neural network cloud".

Yes, and considering that The Fall of Hyperion was published in 1990, that scenario should have been obvious to the Wachowskis.

It was actually what they intended, before the execs told them audiences wouldn't understand it.

Re: A major milestone has been reached in our Brain Preservation Prize

#44
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming the phrase "a sufficiently advanced AI" answers anything at all. Presumably you're assuming if the information is there at all - if the necessary data hasn't been scrambled beyond the noise floor of the scrambling process - then there's something for magic (because you're really talking about magic here) to work with. So, please (a) set out your claim with precision (b) back up your claim. * What is t…

If it's a godlike AI it can simulate humankind in reverse and resurrect everyone's consciousness before each person's death.

That is absolute bunk that defies the basic principles of computational complexity and information theory in almost every possible way.

Re: A major milestone has been reached in our Brain Preservation Prize

#45
post #37
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that follows. If "your" consciousness is just the consciousness that has a continuity of memory with a previous version of you, then the two copies would both be you, but they would not be one another.

Let's say that I a suitably advanced fMRI is developed that is able to map out the connectome non-destructively, I use this device on you to create a copy of your mental state, and then let you go about your day. At some point later I turn on a whole-brain simulation from this data. What do you, the you-that-walked-into-the-scanner expect to experience?

You'd experience nothing unusual.

Re: A major milestone has been reached in our Brain Preservation Prize

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and considering that The Fall of Hyperion was published in 1990, that scenario should have been obvious to the Wachowskis.

It was actually what they intended, before the execs told them audiences wouldn't understand it.

"Humans are used as batteries."

"Humans are used as computer chips."

Neither statement really makes any sense without some creative thinking. Execs are weird.

Re: A major milestone has been reached in our Brain Preservation Prize

#47
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say that I a suitably advanced fMRI is developed that is able to map out the connectome non-destructively, I use this device on you to create a copy of your mental state, and then let you go about your day. At some point later I turn on a whole-brain simulation from this data. What do you, the you-that-walked-into-the-scanner expect to experience?

You'd experience nothing unusual.

I agree. But the further implication is that for the same reasons, if your brain is plasticised and later scanned and turned into an uploaded whole-brain emulation, you'd still be dead. Uploading is not a pathway to personal longevity, or whatever you want to call continuation-of-me-not-just-my-memories.

Re: A major milestone has been reached in our Brain Preservation Prize

#48
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd experience nothing unusual.

I agree. But the further implication is that for the same reasons, if your brain is plasticised and later scanned and turned into an uploaded whole-brain emulation, you'd still be dead. Uploading is not a pathway to personal longevity, or whatever you want to call continuation-of-me-not-just-my-memories.

That's the crux of it all, isn't it? Is your self any more than your personality and memories? If so, then you'll have to resort to a soul or some such. If not, then the upload is really 'you', or a copy anyway.

And who's to say a soul wouldn't attach to a copy anyway? Souls are not that well understood. Perhaps it would be fooled by the copy, or have an affinity for it, or some such. As long as we're speculating.

Re: A major milestone has been reached in our Brain Preservation Prize

#49
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. But the further implication is that for the same reasons, if your brain is plasticised and later scanned and turned into an uploaded whole-brain emulation, you'd still be dead. Uploading is not a pathway to personal longevity, or whatever you want to call continuation-of-me-not-just-my-memories.

That's the crux of it all, isn't it? Is your self any more than your personality and memories? If so, then you'll have to resort to a soul or some such. If not, then the upload is really 'you', or a copy anyway. And who's to say a soul wouldn't attach to a copy anyway? Souls are not that well understood. Perhaps it would be fooled by the copy, or have an affinity for it, or some such. As long as we're speculating.

No, there are plenty of perfectly reasonable physical theories for the nature of consciousness that don't equate identity with memories and don't involve souls. There's no reason to resort to dualism.

For example, there is the identity-is-the-instance-of-computation theory which says that it is not the information being computed (memories) that is relevant, but the computation itself.

Re: A major milestone has been reached in our Brain Preservation Prize

#50
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the crux of it all, isn't it? Is your self any more than your personality and memories? If so, then you'll have to resort to a soul or some such. If not, then the upload is really 'you', or a copy anyway. And who's to say a soul wouldn't attach to a copy anyway? Souls are not that well understood. Perhaps it would be fooled by the copy, or have an affinity for it, or some such. As long as we're speculating.

No, there are plenty of perfectly reasonable physical theories for the nature of consciousness that don't equate identity with memories and don't involve souls. There's no reason to resort to dualism. For example, there is the identity-is-the-instance-of-computation theory which says that it is not the information being computed (memories) that is relevant, but the computation itself.

Agreed, the hardware/wetware is just as important as the bits being uploaded. Especially for chemical brains that store much of personality as neural wiring.

But lets say that's uploaded as well, as part of the 'program' details. Then where are we? An 'instance' of this is not actionably different from any other, if it behaves exactly the same. Its arguable that they are the 'same person' in some sense.

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