Why People Are Irrational about Politics • Hacker News Board

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#41

Post by nostromo » Sun, May 10, 2015, 10:53 PM UTC

> There are three reasons why I disagree with this explanation. The first is that value questions are objective, and moral anti-realism is completely unjustified.

This is probably the longest-running debate in human history, and he dismisses it completely with a link to his undergraduate paper on the subject.

Putting that aside, the problem with this argument is it doesn't allow for changing beliefs. If we are only driven by fitting in with our group, then no political views would ever change as they wouldn't ever reach critical mass.

Just look at the changing opinions of gay marriage. Political views absolutely do change over time, and they can change very quickly. Yet this paper is all about how that is impossible.

> I have witnessed few political conversions, so the most I can offer is speculation as to how one might occur.

I feel like this is an admission that the paper is entirely speculative.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#42

Post by refurb » Sun, May 10, 2015, 10:54 PM UTC

sjtrny wrote: post #39

dreamdu5t wrote: post #4

It's not that people are irrational. People have different prefences . There are winners and losers in politics, and peoples' preferences are often mutually exclusive. The idea that there is some kind of "correct" political position is absurd and grossly ignorant of what politics IS. Example: Some people think there shouldn't be an income tax. Someone else thinks there should be. There is no such thing as a "correct"…

There is no "correct" position. But there are positions that are objectively better if you measure outcomes like health, education, safety, prosperity etc etc.

Can you give an example? It seems like the biggest problem with economics, for example, is that no one can say for sure what the outcome would be. Spending more money during a recession, for example, works only some of the time.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#43

Post by ilaksh » Sun, May 10, 2015, 11:02 PM UTC

Human rationality is a myth.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#44

Post by TulliusCicero » Sun, May 10, 2015, 11:03 PM UTC

sjtrny wrote: post #39

dreamdu5t wrote: post #4

It's not that people are irrational. People have different prefences . There are winners and losers in politics, and peoples' preferences are often mutually exclusive. The idea that there is some kind of "correct" political position is absurd and grossly ignorant of what politics IS. Example: Some people think there shouldn't be an income tax. Someone else thinks there should be. There is no such thing as a "correct"…

There is no "correct" position. But there are positions that are objectively better if you measure outcomes like health, education, safety, prosperity etc etc.

They are not, in fact 'objectively' better, because the degree to which you prioritize each of those things differs based on each person's values. Take welfare, for instance. Social welfare programs help the vulnerable, and undoubtedly some non-zero percentage of people are taking advantage of said programs wrongly. In the US, people who are liberal are more interested in the former, and people who are conservative are more interested in the latter.

This is a chief reason why one group is for it and the other is against it. It's not that liberals don't think welfare fraud exists at all, they just don't think it's a big problem compared to the good such programs do. And it's not that conservatives don't think such programs do help some deserving poor people, they just hate the thought of some of their tax money going to someone mooching off the system.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#45

Post by ThomPete » Sun, May 10, 2015, 11:03 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #41

> There are three reasons why I disagree with this explanation. The first is that value questions are objective, and moral anti-realism is completely unjustified. This is probably the longest-running debate in human history, and he dismisses it completely with a link to his undergraduate paper on the subject. Putting that aside, the problem with this argument is it doesn't allow for changing beliefs. If we are only d…

The change happen because circumstances change and so you change the groups you belong to. But I agree there are other factors too.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#46

Post by escherize » Sun, May 10, 2015, 11:04 PM UTC

Liver wrote: post #15

Let's face it, political parties are designed to divide the people. Why that ? Because political power like every power seeks its own limits. It looks to increase its own power. In a (so-called) democracy, government negociates the boundaries of its own power with the people. One way to get more power for the governement is to weaken the people by dividing them. Now you see the people divided in many different ways w…

I'd continue the argument to include a discussion about the monopoly on the use of force, and the use of morality by the minority to subjugate the majority.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#47

Post by ilaksh » Sun, May 10, 2015, 11:05 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #41

> There are three reasons why I disagree with this explanation. The first is that value questions are objective, and moral anti-realism is completely unjustified. This is probably the longest-running debate in human history, and he dismisses it completely with a link to his undergraduate paper on the subject. Putting that aside, the problem with this argument is it doesn't allow for changing beliefs. If we are only d…

Looks like we have a political disagreement. Beliefs can change, but they usually do not change quickly or easily. That's why we call them beliefs.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#48

Post by escherize » Sun, May 10, 2015, 11:11 PM UTC

bovermyer wrote: post #38

Liver wrote: post #15

Let's face it, political parties are designed to divide the people. Why that ? Because political power like every power seeks its own limits. It looks to increase its own power. In a (so-called) democracy, government negociates the boundaries of its own power with the people. One way to get more power for the governement is to weaken the people by dividing them. Now you see the people divided in many different ways w…

This implies that government, in and of itself, is a conspiracy to perpetuate consolidation of power. That's enough of a broad generalization that I can't take it seriously - while it may be true for some forms of organization, I don't think we have enough data (or the right KIND of data) to actually make a call like that, let alone claim that political parties in particular are defined by power orchestration by a ce…

A central entity is not necessary to the argument. It's not a conspiracy for the consolidation of power, it's the Monopoly of the Use of Force in a Geographic Region.

That force can be sold for a very high price to individuals, and corporations. In fact C.E.O.s have a fiduciary responsibility to exploit this power imbalance in any way they can, so their hands are a bit forced to play ball.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#49

Post by TheGRS » Sun, May 10, 2015, 11:18 PM UTC

ilaksh wrote: post #47

nostromo wrote: post #41

> There are three reasons why I disagree with this explanation. The first is that value questions are objective, and moral anti-realism is completely unjustified. This is probably the longest-running debate in human history, and he dismisses it completely with a link to his undergraduate paper on the subject. Putting that aside, the problem with this argument is it doesn't allow for changing beliefs. If we are only d…

Looks like we have a political disagreement. Beliefs can change, but they usually do not change quickly or easily. That's why we call them beliefs.

I believe OP was referring more to the hockey stick model of wide-spread change in political beliefs. It is a very, very long road toward a change in the public's perception of some issue, such as equal rights or gay marriage, but there often seems to be some tipping point where the minority view becomes the majority in a very short amount of time. Also see legalization of marijuana, prohibition and women's suffrage.

Re: Why People Are Irrational about Politics

#50

Post by coldtea » Sun, May 10, 2015, 11:18 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #23

larsiusprime wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is where I stopped reading" is supposed to be some kind of intellectual badge of honor? "I found what appears to be a point I disagree with, and rather than reading on to see if my disagreement was addressed, I started looking for the comment button."

That's true, but on the other hand it's appropriate to take the author to task for trying to sneak in a claim in the form of a premise, and thus have it accepted without any supporting evidence.

In order to find how other people think and understand their justifications, you have to read on even if they give you a claim or more in the form of a premise.

Understanding a worldview is not about getting arguments for their every single premise, but about trying to see it as a cohesive whole -- because the end result is bigger that any "proven" foundations, and might retro-actively justify them in the first place.

After all those doing the "I've stopped reading" in all probability have lots of premises they consider as axioms themselves (some of them marinated in some light "justification").