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The abundance of JavaScript libraries

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Re: The abundance of JavaScript libraries

#41

Post by nostrademons »

FlannelPancake wrote: post #18
pavlov wrote: post #5

JavaScript libraries are a bit like office politics for front-end web developers -- basically something that feels like work and "advances your career", while in truth it's just a way to avoid doing the real work with actual customers.

> libraries are a bit like office politics for front-end web developers -- basically something that feels like work and "advances your career", while in truth it's just a way to avoid doing the real work with actual customers. That's pretty scary, if true. That sounds very analogous to academic research and the "publish or perish" state of affairs in academia today. Office politics often will advance your career in a…

Capitalism is actually a pretty efficient antidote to that. The way it works is that as a field ossifies into one where everyone is focused on looking good rather than actually being good, the potential financial returns to defecting from the consensus social order and doing something different increase. At some point, someone's bound to say "The emperor has no clothes!", do something that people actually want, and make out like a bandit.

Re: The abundance of JavaScript libraries

#42

Post by petjuh »

vectorpush wrote: post #37
georgemcbay wrote: post #2

Probably a controversial opinion to post here (not in that I think it is unique, but rather that I think there will be a divide in people who agree strongly and those who disagree strongly), but I view the JavaScript framework/library situation as a damning indictment of how terrible the language is. A constant churn of attempts to build a solid foundation upon a bed of leaky sand, each ultimately failing because no…

I think we see so much churn in JavaScript because we've forced the weight of the entire client side web onto the back of a single language. JavaScript must satiate the technical needs of all organizations across every consumer facing device and operating system. Like all languages, JavaScript has its weaknesses, so its not surprising that we find JavaScript to be a less than optimal solution for certain types of pro…

That's what I've been wondering - why don't the browsers add a few more scripting languages, like python? If IE didn't exist, Chrome and Firefox could do it, just for fun, they're very open to new features.

Re: The abundance of JavaScript libraries

#43

Post by georgemcbay »

petjuh wrote: post #42
vectorpush wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we see so much churn in JavaScript because we've forced the weight of the entire client side web onto the back of a single language. JavaScript must satiate the technical needs of all organizations across every consumer facing device and operating system. Like all languages, JavaScript has its weaknesses, so its not surprising that we find JavaScript to be a less than optimal solution for certain types of pro…

That's what I've been wondering - why don't the browsers add a few more scripting languages, like python? If IE didn't exist, Chrome and Firefox could do it, just for fun, they're very open to new features.

These days I'd be far less surprised to see Microsoft and Google co-implement something with regards to new scripting language support than I would be to see Mozilla get involved.

Mozilla is basically cultish about JavaScript's place as the One True Web Language.

Re: The abundance of JavaScript libraries

#44

Post by agumonkey »

smrtinsert wrote: post #35
agumonkey wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that all dynamic languages were converging around a similar set of core principles. - builtin type literal - closures and fp idioms - generators - asynchrony - comprehensions

closures are a horrible anitpatterb imo. abritrary anonymous state potentially from anywhere in your application - how can that be a deairable goal.

It's simple anonymous encapsulation. I'm fond of FP idioms so I may be biased but most of the time I'd take closure based combinators over Objects.

Re: The abundance of JavaScript libraries

#45

Post by FlannelPancake »

nostrademons wrote: post #41
FlannelPancake wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> libraries are a bit like office politics for front-end web developers -- basically something that feels like work and "advances your career", while in truth it's just a way to avoid doing the real work with actual customers. That's pretty scary, if true. That sounds very analogous to academic research and the "publish or perish" state of affairs in academia today. Office politics often will advance your career in a…

Capitalism is actually a pretty efficient antidote to that. The way it works is that as a field ossifies into one where everyone is focused on looking good rather than actually being good, the potential financial returns to defecting from the consensus social order and doing something different increase. At some point, someone's bound to say "The emperor has no clothes!", do something that people actually want, and m…

> Capitalism is actually a pretty efficient antidote to that.

Ehh I'm not really sure how that applies here, especially since the market of "javascript libraries" is probably about as free as you can get (in many senses of the word).

There isn't much going on in the way of financial return in that market, probably because people are seeing the benefit of implicit financial return (via the "office politicking" we're discussing here) and banking on that.

In which case, I'm not sure how capitalism will help.

Re: The abundance of JavaScript libraries

#46

Post by oldmanjay »

coldtea wrote: post #24
oldmanjay wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demands from employers may be considered forcing. The rest, not even close.

That's an ideology, that thinks that people are all 100% responsible for everything they do, can judge everything consciously, and cannot be manipulated to do stuff by things like advertising or peer pressure. Sociological studies have proven time and again that this is not the case -- including in people that think that that's impossible for themselves (sort of like the Dunning–Kruger effect).

manipulation is not force. if you have to redefine words to make your point correct then you didn't make a point.

also, if you're going to assert there are studies that make your conclusion somehow not an ideology, then the actual citations would be good. and they'll have to be fairly interesting to convince me. sociology is full of outright fraud, without even considering all the papers suffering from poor experimental design and rampant conclusion jumping.

Re: The abundance of JavaScript libraries

#47

Post by nostrademons »

FlannelPancake wrote: post #45
nostrademons wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism is actually a pretty efficient antidote to that. The way it works is that as a field ossifies into one where everyone is focused on looking good rather than actually being good, the potential financial returns to defecting from the consensus social order and doing something different increase. At some point, someone's bound to say "The emperor has no clothes!", do something that people actually want, and m…

> Capitalism is actually a pretty efficient antidote to that. Ehh I'm not really sure how that applies here, especially since the market of "javascript libraries" is probably about as free as you can get (in many senses of the word). There isn't much going on in the way of financial return in that market, probably because people are seeing the benefit of implicit financial return (via the "office politicking" we're d…

It works on a level outside the JS library ecosystem: if people are judging potential new employees by their GitHub profiles, and that is resulting in people publishing all sorts of crap on GitHub to make themselves more employable, then eventually the reputational value of having published a JS library will go to zero (possibly even negative). Instead, employers will look for better indications of programmer quality, perhaps "Does anybody use your library?" Eventually some of the savvier programmers will realize that, they'll work on targeting real needs more deeply and really solving them well, and the huge mass of mediocre JS libraries will be replaced by a few good ones.

Re: The abundance of JavaScript libraries

#48

Post by ddw »

fapjacks wrote: post #38
ddw wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If these JavaScript developers are so gullible to the newest thing it says more about them than the hype cycle. It's not just that the language sucks in some ways but that the users of it possess so little engineering rigor that they complain about TOO MANY options.

Let me just put here a notation about the vast majority of JS programmers that are not complaining about all the libraries/options. And there are whiny, bitchy people using other languages, too. It's easy to generalize, so I understand the impulse.

You're right, I am unfairly generalizing. Not everyone thinks this way. But I read more of these articles regarding JS than any other language.

Re: The abundance of JavaScript libraries

#49

Post by fapjacks »

ddw wrote: post #48
fapjacks wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me just put here a notation about the vast majority of JS programmers that are not complaining about all the libraries/options. And there are whiny, bitchy people using other languages, too. It's easy to generalize, so I understand the impulse.

You're right, I am unfairly generalizing. Not everyone thinks this way. But I read more of these articles regarding JS than any other language.

That's a good point, and it certainly lends credibility to your claim. It makes me wonder what causes this. My instinct is that JS attracts more people to it from things like design, where people seem to fawn over (seemingly trivial) things like the meaning of certain kinds of ovals. And so I think it would follow that this kind of mentality bleeds over into some aspects of JavaScript.
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