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U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#41

Post by kordless »

a3n wrote: post #3

Pre-Snowden, I wonder if the ruling would have been different. Back then the judges would only know what was presented to them. The government would have obviously presented in a way that was most favorable to them, and their opposition would not have access to crucial evidence. Now that the cat shit is out of the bag, judges and everyone else have more background to evaluate what's in front of them. The government w…

> Thank you Snowden. Fuck you NSA.

I'm going to turn that into a sticker and stick it on my laptop.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#42

Post by skwirl »

rev_bird wrote: post #8

Is it weird that anti-surveillance court rulings don't really make me feel better? If they'd not only lie to Congress, but ACTUALLY SPY ON Congress, what is a judge going to do to stop them?

It shouldn't make you really feel anything since it is only a three judge panel on an appeals court. Until it reaches the Supreme Court, it is all up in the air.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#43

Post by mikecb »

constichallenge wrote: post #7
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #2

Can somebody explain how a constitutional challenge could be dismissed under the pretext of "it was authorized by Congress"? Isn't the whole point of a constitutional challenge to address things illegal things authorized by the government?

An action by a federal agency can be constitutionally challenged as being outside of the scope or powers granted to that agency by congress. The constitutional challenge thus would be that the agency is operating outside of the checks and balances system the constitution lays out. Congress has in the past and can today authorize agencies to do things like collect data on US citizens for national security purposes or…

What you describe is a statutory challenge. A constitutional challenge would be that the statute authorizing the conduct went beyond the enumerated powers in the Constitution, or that the conduct went beyond the President's inherent Article II authorities, or that it violated rights protected by the Bill of Rights.

That someone is violating checks and balances isn't really a cause of action; you would be more specific in your case.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#44

Post by jstalin »

Read the concurring opinion from Judge Sack. He calls into question the entire FISA court's non-adversarial process, comparing it to the proceedings against the New York Times during the Pentagon Papers era:

His concurring opinion starts at page 98.

http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/cb3868fe-b18...

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#45

Post by chippy »

wehadfun wrote: post #36
toyg wrote: post #29

Now it would be the right time to ask for a presidential pardon for Edward Snowden. Now that candidates are gearing up their campaign platforms, it would be a great vote winner both on the left and on the (libertarian) right. If you live in a "defining primary" state, please go and ask the candidates as soon as they show up.

We may be glad with what he did but do we want to encourage this type of thing? I think quietly "being nice" to him is fine but a public pardon, a welcome hope party, adoring media coverage may inspire some idiot to be the next Snowden and we probably do not want that.

>do we want to encourage this type of thing?

Whistleblowing?

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#46

Post by mikecb »

a3n wrote: post #23
mikecb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constitutional challenge was dismissed because it was found to be constitutional under existing jurisprudence. See discussion in the lower court's memorandum opinion and order starting on the bottom of page 38[1]. Smith v. Maryland, abridged, said that we have no privacy interest in the metadata sent to a third party in order to complete a call. In the words of 4th amendment jurisprudence, we don't have a reasona…

> In the words of 4th amendment jurisprudence, we don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy in items we voluntarily disclose to third parties. I would hope that thinking on this evolves, to the point that we have a reasonable expectation that information we've voluntarily disclosed to a third party stays between us and that third party. Because that is exactly my personal expectation, notwithstanding my other ex…

Mosaic theory doesn't go that far, but in the age of widespread statistical inference, it is an important development.

Generally speaking, the public is entitled to all evidence. Certain rights, such as the Fifth amendment, protect you from being compelled to testify against yourself, but you have no right to prevent, nor does anyone else have the right to refuse, to testify against or about you, except for a very small and declining set of common law privileges, and even those only apply in certain circumstances.

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#47

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ericcumbee wrote: post #27
MrZongle2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to add to the downer chorus, but I think that would require a majority in both houses to exhibit some integrity and a desire to wield Congressional power. I don't see that happening. Obstructionism, pandering, lobbying and abdication of responsibility? Oh, we've got that in spades.

Not to be a double downer, I don't see the current president signing anything that would limit executive power so it would take 2/3rds of both houses to override a veto.

That one's easy to get around. Congress does budgets. If Congress has backbone (but not 2/3 majority backbone), they can pass a budget that de-funds NSA to whatever degree desired. The president can veto it. But then there's no budget, so there's still no money for the NSA...

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#48

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ra1n85 wrote: post #34

That it took this long and came this close is concerning. I can't help but feel this is just theater.

If it was just theater, it wouldn't have been ruled this way (unless your fear is that it will be overturned on a Supreme Court appeal, or that Congress will specifically authorize this).

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#49

Post by im3w1l »

maze-le wrote: post #19
cryoshon wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, cheer up. Sure, the intelligence agencies will do their best to lie and hide from Congress, but every time they do so, it is one step closer to the hammer coming down onto them and their funding being slashed.

I wouldn't be so optimistic. A bit of fearmongering here and there. Some idiots from the middle east (or wherever) spreading fear and terror... et viola: New justification for more funds.

It's funny because the head of ISIS came from Saddam's intelligence services. I wonder if they have a man or two in NSA...

Re: U.S. NSA domestic phone spying program illegal: appeals court

#50

Post by AnimalMuppet »

a3n wrote: post #9

I'm sure the NSA is laughing at the judge and his decision. "How many divisions does he have? Bwa-ha-ha-ha." https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

NSA employees go home at night. They are subject to arrest when they do, if the courts need to go that far.
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