Ask HN: Would Java make it if introduced today?

> the first byte code based VM language

UCSD pascal would like to have a word with you. Circa 1980

> fully object oriented and the first byte code based VM language.

Smalltalk would like to have a word with you. Circa 1984

> Java was the first maintstream GC language

Basic (in all its variations) would like to have a word with you. Circa 1968; And perhaps it is going to bring along its buddies Lisp (1958?) and APL (1950-1960, depends on who you ask).

All of these languages were mainstream at one point or another - in a much smaller world, but still, mainstream.

Java wasn't the first to offer all of these together - Smalltalk did that in 1984, and I'm not sure Smalltalk was the first.

> Java brought programming to a higher standard with clear syntax, easy of use and a much faster learning curve than languages up to that point. That paradigm gave rise to new languages like Javascript and new designs for large scale software.

Java's syntax is clear only to someone who is versed in Java (or a Java like language like C, C++, C#). Python came out at the same time (1991) and brought a syntax much, much clearer, with a much faster learning curve. It was also VM based and GC, by the way - and having programmed both in 1991, I can tell you Python was often much faster (mostly owing to dicts being implemented in C, whereas Java was all interpreted).

> So, I think it's irrelevant if Java would make it if introduced today since I am not sure today would be here (or at least in its current form) without Java.

I agree. But I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. Specifically, I don't think Java deserves any accolades. It's the COBOL of the 21st century. If Java wasn't around, and Python took over, I think we'd be in a much better place. If Java wasn't around and C/C++ continued their reign, I supposed we'd be slightly less well off. We don't have to agree on opinion. But we should be able to agree on facts.

I don't know, but Java definitely succeeded at least in part because of the programming environment at the time.

I didn't live through the time that Java saw it's rise in use on the enterprise, but what I've been told by others that was a big deal at the time were two things combined that made it attractive, and it being one of the few languages that was very accessible that had these two characteristics. These were:

* Garbage Collected language.

* Being able to write code in Windows (which is what most enterprise developers used then and even now), and deploy on Linux/other OS reliably.

Again, this is just what I've heard from others that were there, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Today, there are other options, so maybe it wouldn't be as big a sellilng point. But to me at least, it is still one of the languages that allows this the easiest by far.

Don't forget the culture of design-pattern-overdose, dogmatic architecture astronautism, and extreme overengineering that it propagated. This happens in C++ too, but in Java, it was so easy to build obtusely baroque designs with disturbingly long chains of indirection and have everything still work for the most part... while consuming massive amounts of CPU time and memory.

I worked briefly with Java applications in the early 2000s, and that was certainly not an enjoyable experience. I won't miss the bureaucracy, extreme waste, and fervently dogmatic adherence to "best practices" that created more busy-work than anything else.

"If all you have are classes, everything turns into an object."

i STILL REMEMBER VISUAL J# AND vISUAL j++

What's bad about LMGTFY is it assumes Google's results and articles would lead me the correct and objective sources - in a perfect vacuum - where you assume I know what to even query. C# and Java bring up a lot of things - and guessing won't necessarily reveal the context of what was in conversation.

In my opinion, the LMGTFY peanut gallery tend to be the glib one's. Always going for the short, clever smirks, never the depths, the wisdom; teaching others.

What's most toxic about this kind of - I assume well-intention people's behavior - I literally find myself Googling, and every now and then, hopefully an answer on forum thread where they say "Just Google it", "Just search it on the forum".