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Introducing F# 4.0

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Re: Introducing F# 4.0

#41

Post by edgyswingset »

bad_user wrote: post #28
msutherl wrote: post #7

Microsoft scares me, for no good reason. Would, say, a Ruby or node.js-oriented web developer find the F#/.NET community lacking, incomplete, unfriendly, uncool? Is there even a community to speak of? What's to stop a young developer from going against the grain and adopting .NET? (Here come the downvotes. Shun the "hipster." But really, I'm looking for a subjective perspective from somebody on "the other side." I do…

From my experience thus far the .NET community is not friendly to open-source. Yes, open-source projects do exist, but those are few and far between, being either ports from the Java world, or throwaways that failed as commercial projects. There are also instances of bait and switch, as in projects starting as open-source being closed later (e.g. ServiceStack). Also compare RoboVM.com with Xamarin.com. If you'll dig…

> since an IDE that needs extra investments into ReSharper is not that good in my opinion

A lot of people choose ReSharper for "nice" things that often times aren't buying them a whole lot in terms of productivity (e.g. "turn this foreach() loop into a Select() statement" really doesn't buy one much). I'd hardly say that one needs ReSharper to get the full Visual Studio experience.

Re: Introducing F# 4.0

#42

Post by moonchrome »

reactor wrote: post #39
moonchrome wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>being either ports from the Java world, or throwaways that failed as commercial projects This is blatantly false. Just on my current project I'm using : * OpenTK - opensource API around OpenGL * ReactiveUI - opensource MVVM framework using RX for databinding * Command Line Parser Library - opensource, does what it says * NLog - logging library * sqlite-net - micro ORM for sqlite I excluded : * RX - opensource but co…

You are just proving what OP says "the .NET community is filled with closed-minded folks that will never admit that their tooling sucks". Unfortunately, you are not seeing the whole picture.

What ? I developed web applications with Clojure/CLJS Python/Django, I did C++ development for years and a large part of the code in my current project is in Python because the tool we use (Blender) uses Python as a scripting language.

I agree that .NET has less opensource tools because a lot of things are just provided by Microsoft out of the box, and there are many areas it's not popular - but there are many OSS projects and they match the things I saw in Python and Clojure community.

I would say his posts proves another point - a lot of people in open-source are unfriendly to .NET because of Microsoft origin and they like to spread FUD. I remember when Mono was getting started and every thread on every news board would bring up how it's "patented/copyrighted" even when Microsoft gave .NET community patent promise and made CLI a standard.

When I contributed patches to Mono and talking to other .NET developers on social networks I never saw this "unfriendliness towards OSS".

Re: Introducing F# 4.0

#43

Post by istvan__ »

kolektiv wrote: post #16
msutherl wrote: post #7

Microsoft scares me, for no good reason. Would, say, a Ruby or node.js-oriented web developer find the F#/.NET community lacking, incomplete, unfriendly, uncool? Is there even a community to speak of? What's to stop a young developer from going against the grain and adopting .NET? (Here come the downvotes. Shun the "hipster." But really, I'm looking for a subjective perspective from somebody on "the other side." I do…

I hope you don't get downvoted, those seems like reasonable questions. I'm part of the F# community I guess, so I suppose I could try and answer! I'm not sure the F# community is the same as the broader .NET community. I think at the moment, with functional programming being a little more niche still, it's perhaps quite self-selecting. It has a lot of people in who really care. I think that's a good thing - I hope -…

I wish there was a some info on how to get CLR (not Mono) get up and running on Mac with C#, F# etc.

Re: Introducing F# 4.0

#44

Post by marpstar »

edgyswingset wrote: post #41
bad_user wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my experience thus far the .NET community is not friendly to open-source. Yes, open-source projects do exist, but those are few and far between, being either ports from the Java world, or throwaways that failed as commercial projects. There are also instances of bait and switch, as in projects starting as open-source being closed later (e.g. ServiceStack). Also compare RoboVM.com with Xamarin.com. If you'll dig…

> since an IDE that needs extra investments into ReSharper is not that good in my opinion A lot of people choose ReSharper for "nice" things that often times aren't buying them a whole lot in terms of productivity (e.g. "turn this foreach() loop into a Select() statement" really doesn't buy one much). I'd hardly say that one needs ReSharper to get the full Visual Studio experience.

With the latest versions of Visual Studio (>= 2012), I agree with you, but 2010 and prior still didn't have a lot of the Go To Symbol fuzzy search features that VS now has out of box.

Regarding the LINQ refactors you mentioned, I'd say those are less about gaining productivity than it is to educate the developer in how code can be refactored. A lot of times, those LINQ refactors turn out considerably less readable, but it's a moment to learn other ways of solving problems.

Re: Introducing F# 4.0

#45

Post by rattray »

istvan__ wrote: post #43
kolektiv wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you don't get downvoted, those seems like reasonable questions. I'm part of the F# community I guess, so I suppose I could try and answer! I'm not sure the F# community is the same as the broader .NET community. I think at the moment, with functional programming being a little more niche still, it's perhaps quite self-selecting. It has a lot of people in who really care. I think that's a good thing - I hope -…

I wish there was a some info on how to get CLR (not Mono) get up and running on Mac with C#, F# etc.

    brew tap aspnet/dnx
    brew update
    brew install dnvm
    dnvm upgrade
From https://github.com/aspnet/Home/blob/dev/README.md#os-x

There are some hello world examples in the repo listed above as well. If you'd like, you can develop with the recently announced Visual Studio Code, announced ~yesterday.

I think this is still Mono, but full MSFT support of *Nix is said to be underway.

Re: Introducing F# 4.0

#46

Post by rattray »

bad_user wrote: post #28
msutherl wrote: post #7

Microsoft scares me, for no good reason. Would, say, a Ruby or node.js-oriented web developer find the F#/.NET community lacking, incomplete, unfriendly, uncool? Is there even a community to speak of? What's to stop a young developer from going against the grain and adopting .NET? (Here come the downvotes. Shun the "hipster." But really, I'm looking for a subjective perspective from somebody on "the other side." I do…

From my experience thus far the .NET community is not friendly to open-source. Yes, open-source projects do exist, but those are few and far between, being either ports from the Java world, or throwaways that failed as commercial projects. There are also instances of bait and switch, as in projects starting as open-source being closed later (e.g. ServiceStack). Also compare RoboVM.com with Xamarin.com. If you'll dig…

Theres a lot of negativity here that I won't comment on, though I'd be curious to hear where the author is coming from (what was the source of his/her experience with .NET). They may certainly know more than I do.

As for open source community, we have real data available so there's no need for debate: http://githut.info/

As of Q4 2014, C# was number 10 in langs by number of active repos, with 56k (compared to, say, 85k for C++). Came in ahead of ObjC, R, Go, and others.

It may not be JavaScript, but it's active. If you look at the other stats you'll see these really aren't dead repos either.

Re: Introducing F# 4.0

#47

Post by gagege »

rattray wrote: post #45
istvan__ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish there was a some info on how to get CLR (not Mono) get up and running on Mac with C#, F# etc.

brew tap aspnet/dnx brew update brew install dnvm dnvm upgrade From https://github.com/aspnet/Home/blob/dev/README.md#os-x There are some hello world examples in the repo listed above as well. If you'd like, you can develop with the recently announced Visual Studio Code, announced ~yesterday. I think this is still Mono, but full MSFT support of *Nix is said to be underway.

Also, if you use Yeoman, make sure you upgrade your aspnet generator. I had issues until I realized the version I had was generating a project with out of date dependencies.

Re: Introducing F# 4.0

#48

Post by mistermann »

marpstar wrote: post #37

I've been writing most of my utility code in F# for the past few months, is there anything that you guys DON'T like about it? I'm really enjoying how terse it is in comparison to C# and haven't really run into anything that's bothered me, besides Xamarin Studio being bloated.

Could you post any comparison code demonstrating the terseness, or suggest a good site that might demonstrate this?

Re: Introducing F# 4.0

#49

Post by gagege »

msutherl wrote: post #20
jsprogrammer wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hunh? C# was one of my first professional languages and I used it for five years. It's an excellent language and many people use it. What 'grain' do you think you are going against? The more platforms and languages you get exposed to, the more informed choices you'll be able to make in the future.

Subjective, but I've never met a C# developer and I know approximately zero developers who run Windows.

That's pretty crazy. Where I live and work, almost everyone mostly does C#. And, even the PHP developers I know run Windows for some reason.

Re: Introducing F# 4.0

#50

Post by gagege »

mistermann wrote: post #48
marpstar wrote: post #37

I've been writing most of my utility code in F# for the past few months, is there anything that you guys DON'T like about it? I'm really enjoying how terse it is in comparison to C# and haven't really run into anything that's bothered me, besides Xamarin Studio being bloated.

Could you post any comparison code demonstrating the terseness, or suggest a good site that might demonstrate this?

Here's a humorous take on F#'s terseness: http://www.slideshare.net/ScottWlaschin/c-light
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