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Maybe we’ve not improved things as much as we think we have with Devops?

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Re: Maybe we’ve not improved things as much as we think we have with Devops?

#41
post #34

This recent trend of articles wrt to devops it making me want to post here. Not trying to be too snarky, but why can't people just use shell scripts for automation? They are easy to repair, in a language you (should) know, reproducible, and testable. They are native to your target, supremely portable, etc, etc.

It's certainly possible to do with shell scripts and by stringing lots of small utilities such as expect together. But I've been there, and after a few years and a handful of consultants came and went, it's all a big ball of mud. I know how many of my colleagues get spaces in file names, tmp races, and error handling right in their shell scripts, and they're not many. What Puppet et al brings to the table is a bit of…

> What Puppet et al brings to the table is a bit of structure and best practice.

> But the big win with a configuration management tool is not even in the tool itself. It's having a central database of _all_ configuration in every environment.

I agree that is the big win. Though in theory you don't need a configuration management tool to get it. Just sufficient discipline and attention to best-practices.

What the config management tools provide, here, is a framework for combining "site-wide" configuration, "local/discovered" facts, and "human-assigned" roles and classes and exposing it all, consistently, to a specialized scripting language.

The library of modules/cookbooks/etc. also often take care of a lot tedious logic/details that would otherwise have to be in the code (although this part can still get in the way...).

Re: Maybe we’ve not improved things as much as we think we have with Devops?

#42

This recent trend of articles wrt to devops it making me want to post here. Not trying to be too snarky, but why can't people just use shell scripts for automation? They are easy to repair, in a language you (should) know, reproducible, and testable. They are native to your target, supremely portable, etc, etc.

Having been doing sysadmin duties for more years than I care to remember and having gone through the gradual process of manual configuration -> shell scripts -> cfengine -> puppet, I'd say despite problems in tools like puppet/salt/etc they are way, way more reliable and sysadmin friendly than shell scripts. For just one example, I've recently begun deploying CentOS 7 boxes whereas previously we mostly used 6 (and so…

Congratulations on getting rid of your last AIX box. I wish I could :|

Re: Maybe we’ve not improved things as much as we think we have with Devops?

#43
post #10

I think it's worth reflecting that not every improvement initiative (in this case: see DevOps) across the whole world is moving as one large entity. The ending line: "Otherwise in my opinion it feels more like we’re treading water and not making the advancements we could be making." sounds like an existential fallacy to me - it has been my experience that although the "DevOps vision" has not changed significantly, th…

Basically my thoughts: 5 years is not a very long time! It isn't treading water, it's taking time to mature and penetrate. It's actually taking root surprisingly quickly, and only looks slow from an early-adopter's perspective. If those talks from 2010 and 2011 were given to substantially the exact same audience as that talk from 2014, then yeah, maybe I see the point that things are just being re-hashed with little progress, but I doubt that's the case.

Giving the same exact talks to an ever-expanding audience over 5 years is already a win.

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