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Nootropic Brain Drugs Rise in Popularity for Today’s Corporate Climbers

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Re: Nootropic Brain Drugs Rise in Popularity for Today’s Corporate Climbers

#41

Post by MichaelGG »

michaelochurch wrote: post #18

I used a fairly popular, legal nootropic and set off a manic episode. Not hypomania (I'm cyclothymic, so I'm used to that and it's usually benign) but scary, saw-code-when-I-closed-my-eyes mania. (It was bad code but at least it wasn't Java.) Also, mania isn't usually "happy"; it's 15% euphoria but 35% anger and 50% anxiety. Based on one episode (eh, maybe two or three; before your mid-20s it is hard to tell) I give…

Well that's why pretty much every psychoactive drug has a warning for people with mental "illness" like that. Stimulants apparently can contribute to psychosis. OTOH, I've known people that get prescribed amphetamines like mad because they're too tired out from all the anti-psychotics and mood-stabilizers. Seems a bit counterproductive.

Mania can be happy. Or at least a terrible funfuck of a ride while it lasts. At least for the person experiencing it. If they don't have to deal with all the consequences.

Re: Nootropic Brain Drugs Rise in Popularity for Today’s Corporate Climbers

#42

Post by rictic »

steego wrote: post #28
Gatsky wrote: post #23

Massive, massive potential for the placebo effect. This needs to be tested in a randomised double blind trial with standardised testing of the purported cognitive enhancements. Until then it's snake oil.

I remember reading in one of Dan Ariely's book that spending more on placebos makes them more effective. (He typically tested people by giving them word scrambles or similar tasks). Remember kids, if you want a really good placebo experience, buy the good shit.

Other fun placebo effects: red pills work better than blue pills. All pills work better if given to you by a doctor. Better still if the doctor is wearing a white coat. Yet better is the doctor uses a large peace of medical machinery as part of the intervention. And yet a bit better on top if the machine beeps.

Basically, for best results you want to receive your medicine as the Star Patient in a Very Important Looking Medical Drama right at the moment where Everything Starts Getting Better.

Re: Nootropic Brain Drugs Rise in Popularity for Today’s Corporate Climbers

#43

Post by MichaelGG »

This further illustrates how terribly unfair modern medical systems are. Want to change your brain chemistry? You've gotta do a song-and-dance for a doctor. Who might either hate "addicts", or be terrified of the DEA. Do a poor job lying and try again? Oh, now you're "doctor shopping", which some want to criminalize. Have an in with a doctor or have enough money, well then it's no problem. (Sure, money buys a lot of leeway in everything, but this is a fairly basic freedom.)

I'm not an American but from what I was taught about folks like Ben Franklin, I think they'd be shocked to know it has become illegal to determine your own treatment.

Re: Nootropic Brain Drugs Rise in Popularity for Today’s Corporate Climbers

#44

Post by yojo »

Is it just me that worries about a race to the bottom with brain hacking? Assume some combination of nootropics/transcranial stimulation/etc gives you a short-term edge for unknown (or known) long term risk.

If you're a profit-maximizing employer, would you rather hire the person who performs better today, or the person who is looking out for their own long-term safety? Or if you're a startup founder competing against a bunch of doped up super-brains, how strong must the incentive be to join the dark side?

I see similarities with professional sports, where athletic associations are always playing Whac-A-Mole with performance enhancing drugs, and top earning athletes routinely get chastised for doping. Should we expect outcomes in knowledge work to be different if brain hacking proves as effective?

Re: Nootropic Brain Drugs Rise in Popularity for Today’s Corporate Climbers

#45

Post by quotedmycode »

this_user wrote: post #8

The one thing that really interests me about this is the long-term damage you are doing to yourself. There appear to be two types of stimulants. There are the legal ones like caffeine that have a moderate effect and are not significantly unhealthy unless consumed in extreme quantities. And there are the illegal ones like amphetamines that have a significant effect, but will also cause a great deal of harm the more yo…

Piracetam is one of the most popular ones, it's not hard to find, and it works for most people, or not. The most common side effect is muscle twitches or headaches. Headaches are caused by a reduction of the amount of choline, and eating eggs or taking a choline supplement makes the headache go away. Generally the twitches are not severe and don't affect voluntary movements. The side effects subside upon stopping. I'd say it's a completely different effect than caffeine, as it allows me to concentrate for extended periods and have instant recall. If it is a placebo effect, then whatever it is, it works. Placebo effect means there is an effect because there is expected to be one, so in any case it's useful. Piracetam's effects on the body are well documented, since it's been in use for about 35 years now. That said, I don't think this gives you any more rest, nor does taking it make it so you can't sleep. In fact, if I take too much I feel sleepy almost immediately and wake up feeling pretty good. In any case, these people taking nootropics are the new normal.

Re: Nootropic Brain Drugs Rise in Popularity for Today’s Corporate Climbers

#46

Post by Gatsky »

MichaelGG wrote: post #43

This further illustrates how terribly unfair modern medical systems are. Want to change your brain chemistry? You've gotta do a song-and-dance for a doctor. Who might either hate "addicts", or be terrified of the DEA. Do a poor job lying and try again? Oh, now you're "doctor shopping", which some want to criminalize. Have an in with a doctor or have enough money, well then it's no problem. (Sure, money buys a lot of…

This is a thorny topic. The trouble is that when a large number of people take a drug, rare but horrific side effects may manifest. How do you factor this in to deciding an appropriate level of regulation? Is it fair that we permit easily accessible experimentation with psychoactive or nootropic substances, when someone downs a few too many, has a psychotic episode and drowns his children? Or has a fatal allergic reaction? Or drives their car off a bridge because they have been awake for 96 hours taking one of these products? That may sound outlandish, but eventually something like this will happen to someone if enough people take it.

So I don't know if you can just couch it in terms of personal freedoms... it seems a bit more complicated than that. I don't know what the answer is, but pretty sure it isn't just 'Let people do whatever they want.' At least with heroin and cocaine people have some idea about the risks, even if they decide to ignore them...

Re: Nootropic Brain Drugs Rise in Popularity for Today’s Corporate Climbers

#47

Post by falcolas »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #12
borgia wrote: post #3

I suppose it's only natural that people are resorting to these when huge swathes of the American youth are being prescribed Adderall and similar and gaining a competitive edge with them over those who don't have access to them. I previously looked at sourcing modafinil but ultimately decided against it due the the sources available looking dodgy, a lack of clarity in the laws around it, etc. As more reputable compani…

> I suppose it's only natural that people are resorting to these when huge swathes of the American youth are being prescribed Adderall and similar and gaining a competitive edge with them over those who don't have access to them. I don't think Adderall would really give ADHD suffers an advantage. It might bring them close to the level of others, but Adderall has its own effects, and ADHD isn't going to be completely…

It brings your dopamine production up towards normal levels, letting your neurons connect to each other properly.

The effect is that it doesn't improve concentration so much as it allows concentration in the first place.

Re: Nootropic Brain Drugs Rise in Popularity for Today’s Corporate Climbers

#48

Post by MichaelGG »

Gatsky wrote: post #46
MichaelGG wrote: post #43

This further illustrates how terribly unfair modern medical systems are. Want to change your brain chemistry? You've gotta do a song-and-dance for a doctor. Who might either hate "addicts", or be terrified of the DEA. Do a poor job lying and try again? Oh, now you're "doctor shopping", which some want to criminalize. Have an in with a doctor or have enough money, well then it's no problem. (Sure, money buys a lot of…

This is a thorny topic. The trouble is that when a large number of people take a drug, rare but horrific side effects may manifest. How do you factor this in to deciding an appropriate level of regulation? Is it fair that we permit easily accessible experimentation with psychoactive or nootropic substances, when someone downs a few too many, has a psychotic episode and drowns his children? Or has a fatal allergic rea…

How do we handle alcohol? You tell people that modifying yourself isn't an excuse for committing crimes. And follow up and enforce that. Making it a crime to use chemicals on your own mind is absurd.

With heroin, the biggest risk is the fact it's illegal, thus preventing you from obtaining clean, known-quantity medication. If Tylenol was sold on the streets, with pills ranging from 100mg to 1000mg, we'd have a LOT more liver toxicity cases than we do. It's not like using opiates in a correct manner leads to death on a routine basis.

Re: Nootropic Brain Drugs Rise in Popularity for Today’s Corporate Climbers

#49

Post by adamnemecek »

steego wrote: post #17
adamnemecek wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

probably because you don't know much about nootropics?

I bet he didn't even read the marketing literature or the industry funded studies.

Are you debating whether say Adderall has any noticeable effects?

Re: Nootropic Brain Drugs Rise in Popularity for Today’s Corporate Climbers

#50

Post by letstryagain »

quotedmycode wrote: post #45
this_user wrote: post #8

The one thing that really interests me about this is the long-term damage you are doing to yourself. There appear to be two types of stimulants. There are the legal ones like caffeine that have a moderate effect and are not significantly unhealthy unless consumed in extreme quantities. And there are the illegal ones like amphetamines that have a significant effect, but will also cause a great deal of harm the more yo…

Piracetam is one of the most popular ones, it's not hard to find, and it works for most people, or not. The most common side effect is muscle twitches or headaches. Headaches are caused by a reduction of the amount of choline, and eating eggs or taking a choline supplement makes the headache go away. Generally the twitches are not severe and don't affect voluntary movements. The side effects subside upon stopping. I'…

I tried the racetams but they don't do anything for me. Modafinil does work though but tolerance develops quickly.

Caffeine of course is still #1 for me in terms of efficacy. I'm not desperate enough to use harder stimulants like ephedrines or amphetamines or phenethylamines etc.

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