Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling • Hacker News Board

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#41

Post by reefab » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 1:08 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #14

bertil wrote: post #4

Financial incentives do not make sense: having a car in Paris is already crazy expensive. During the 20 years I lived there, I cycled everywhere, and I had an almost weekly accident, always at the same three intersections -- cars running into stationary bikes, half the time openly on purpose (there is a bolo for a taxi driver for attempted manslaughter under my name: his plaque was unlegible on the camera, but him ac…

I've lived in Paris for 45+ years. The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights, which irritate the hell out of everybody else. It's true that many car drivers are very aggressive towards bicycle riders, but what you fail to mention is that everyone cheers for the car and not the bike... Personnally I ride a motorcycle; it was stolen last year and so I used bikes for about a month…

My answer to some of those issues have been to use a folding bike and combining transport modes.

A 15km ride might be 13km of RER and 2km of biking, on some trips it's pretty damn fast even compared with a car that has to contend with traffic.

It doesn't solve the rain issue on the other hand. Especially as folding bikes generally have smaller wheels that tend to skid on wet pavement.

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#42

Post by toothbrush » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 1:17 PM UTC

iakh wrote: post #33

The weather is too poor here to make this a realistic solution. We try to velib as much as we can, but you can only reliably bike maybe 4 months out of the year if you're lucky. The remaining days are either too wet or too cold or both. No amount of bike lanes or police enforcement can change the generally miserable weather of Paris.

I think it's safe to say the weather in Amsterdam or Copenhagen is at least as bad as in Paris. (disclosure: i didn't downvote you)

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#43

Post by reefab » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 1:17 PM UTC

bertil wrote: post #4

Financial incentives do not make sense: having a car in Paris is already crazy expensive. During the 20 years I lived there, I cycled everywhere, and I had an almost weekly accident, always at the same three intersections -- cars running into stationary bikes, half the time openly on purpose (there is a bolo for a taxi driver for attempted manslaughter under my name: his plaque was unlegible on the camera, but him ac…

They are working on it, previously difficult intersections like the Nation roundabout are now easy to use by bike. Multiple "pain points" like those have been identified and have work done to it or are planned.

On the other hand, I still crap my pants when going through Bastille...

You are essentially right, though, have an efficient network requires good nodes and good paths, right now the paths are pretty good but some nodes are painful and to get around them, you need to leave the network.

For reference, here is a map of the existing and planned bike paths: http://i.imgur.com/PigJifZ.jpg

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#44

Post by jellicle » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 1:20 PM UTC

sveme wrote: post #29

cataflam wrote: post #18

> Paris has a pollution problem. Instead of the smoke from Gauloise cigarettes and the aroma of freshly baked bread, the air is packed with smog, an issue that got so bad one day last month, the city forcibly halved traffic by allowing only cars with odd-number plates to drive. Of course this could have nothing do to with Germany phasing out its nuclear power plants and having to reopen coal power plants instead. The…

Sorry for being harsh, but suggesting that German coal power plants are responsible for Paris smog is just bollocks, Paris being around 300km from the French-German border. There are ample reasons to criticise the "Energiewende", but Paris smog is definitely not one of them.

Toronto, Ontario is 400km from Ohio, and gets smog from Ohio's coal plants all the time. The studies suggest about half of Toronto's air pollution is due to U.S. power plants.

I have no idea what the reality is of smog in Europe, but your off-hand dismissal of this based on the perceived distance between the source and recipient of the pollution is entirely wrong.

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#45

Post by widdershins » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 1:31 PM UTC

lovemenot wrote: post #5

awjr wrote: post #2

When it comes to cycling, a network is only as good as its weakest link. Seville had an eleven fold increase in cycling by 'simply' installing protected cycle lanes. http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jan/28/seville-cyclin... The golden rule is to segregate. Give cars, bicycles, and feet their own space. DO NOT mix. If somebody can make a choice to put their 6 year old child on a bike and cycle around a city, you…

>> The golden rule is to segregate. Give cars, bicycles, and feet their own space. DO NOT mix. This seems too emphatic, given the counter-example of Japanese cities, which have few dedicated bicycle lanes, yet remarkably high rates of cycle usage.

I was in Tokyo recently - I found it very annoying having cyclists sharing the pavement with pedestrians.

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#46

Post by bambax » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 1:37 PM UTC

dmethvin wrote: post #39

bambax wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in Paris for 45+ years. The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights, which irritate the hell out of everybody else. It's true that many car drivers are very aggressive towards bicycle riders, but what you fail to mention is that everyone cheers for the car and not the bike... Personnally I ride a motorcycle; it was stolen last year and so I used bikes for about a month…

If sweating from the exertion is a problem, you could use something like an electric unicycle. They go up to 25km/h for 20km, can take hills, and are good for the "last mile" problem of getting to/from the train or metro. Judging from the YouTube videos they already seem to be in use around Paris: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVJAeQbInYg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InaqGRYq1z8

Ha! I just got one last month! I got the AirWheel Q3 that has two wheels instead of one and that is supposed to have a larger battery.

I love it, but wouldn't ride it everyday to work.

Pros:

- super fun to ride, a lot like skiing but without any effort on your part; you actually miss it when you get off

- reasonably fast but not too fast

- (for now) excellent "cool factor"; kids actually stop you to ask you where they can get one

Cons:

- the autonomy is not reassuring; if I used it to go to work I would be frightened that it runs out in the middle of the way back and I would have to carry it back via public transport; it's heavy (15kg)

- very difficult to ride on curved streets when you're not at the top of the curve (in the middle) -- for me it's more than just difficult, it's impossible as of now

- difficult to ride up or down hills

- unpredictable behavior when you fall off; I would be very afraid it would hit someone or go to the middle of a busy road

So for now I just go to skate parks with my kids with it; again, it's super fun as a toy; but for regular transport I'm not yet convinced. Maybe I need more experience.

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#47

Post by bambax » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 1:41 PM UTC

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #37

bambax wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in Paris for 45+ years. The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights, which irritate the hell out of everybody else. It's true that many car drivers are very aggressive towards bicycle riders, but what you fail to mention is that everyone cheers for the car and not the bike... Personnally I ride a motorcycle; it was stolen last year and so I used bikes for about a month…

You have articulated the usual list of excuses for not investing in cycling, and none of the excuses survives close scrutiny. There are many cities right now with a variety of climates, topographies, land use forms and densities that have very high rates of daily cycling. What's more, the cities with high rates of cycling all got there the same way: by investing in extensive, continuous networks of high quality cycli…

Okay, no need to get all upset... I don't really care one way or the other (I actually live just outside Paris and therefore don't pay taxes to the city of Paris; how Parisians spend their money doesn't affect me).

I was just describing my own experience with bicycles; you can agree or disagree but I assure you it's the truth.

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#48

Post by bambax » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 1:44 PM UTC

reefab wrote: post #41

bambax wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in Paris for 45+ years. The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights, which irritate the hell out of everybody else. It's true that many car drivers are very aggressive towards bicycle riders, but what you fail to mention is that everyone cheers for the car and not the bike... Personnally I ride a motorcycle; it was stolen last year and so I used bikes for about a month…

My answer to some of those issues have been to use a folding bike and combining transport modes. A 15km ride might be 13km of RER and 2km of biking, on some trips it's pretty damn fast even compared with a car that has to contend with traffic. It doesn't solve the rain issue on the other hand. Especially as folding bikes generally have smaller wheels that tend to skid on wet pavement.

Never tried a folding bike, but it might be fun...

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#49

Post by Mimu » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 1:51 PM UTC

hrktb wrote: post #24

bambax wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in Paris for 45+ years. The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights, which irritate the hell out of everybody else. It's true that many car drivers are very aggressive towards bicycle riders, but what you fail to mention is that everyone cheers for the car and not the bike... Personnally I ride a motorcycle; it was stolen last year and so I used bikes for about a month…

>The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights The problem with Paris would be more that it's full of parisians. It's very cliche, but sadly true. People are smart and educated but undisciplined, behave unresponsibly, and think about rules as mere guidelines. Being "human" and super lenient is mostly a quality, even when it comes to street rules. Drivers are really bad, bikes don't…

> "Public transport would have a boost in use justifying more investment".

There are already overcrowded like crazy, what more people do you want? As a daily user, please do make more people inside my train. It's rare but it happened several times that I had to let go 4 trains before giving up and going home, because there were already too many people in it.

You want less cars on the road? Maybe start delivering quality transportation instead of this horrible stack of old trains, that make you late everytime and feel like being in a overcrowded animal farm you see in the documentaries.

Re: Paris’ $160M Plan to Boost Cycling

#50

Post by adam-_- » Wed, Apr 08, 2015, 2:09 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #14

bertil wrote: post #4

Financial incentives do not make sense: having a car in Paris is already crazy expensive. During the 20 years I lived there, I cycled everywhere, and I had an almost weekly accident, always at the same three intersections -- cars running into stationary bikes, half the time openly on purpose (there is a bolo for a taxi driver for attempted manslaughter under my name: his plaque was unlegible on the camera, but him ac…

I've lived in Paris for 45+ years. The problem with bicycles is that they don't respect road signs or traffic lights, which irritate the hell out of everybody else. It's true that many car drivers are very aggressive towards bicycle riders, but what you fail to mention is that everyone cheers for the car and not the bike... Personnally I ride a motorcycle; it was stolen last year and so I used bikes for about a month…

> - pedaling makes you hot and sweaty; you arrive at the office being a mess

This may be the case for some people but if you cycle gently enough and are moderately fit, there's no reason you should be particularly sweaty after arriving.

I cycle to work in a cycling/change of top. After I arrive, I wait around 10 minutes to cool down (not always needed, but it's a habit) while checking emails, making a coffee etc. and then I change into my work top and all is good.

If you are really hot and unable to shower at work, perhaps consider baby wipes or similar for a quick freshen up.

Money can help here, as it's usually easier to cycle casually if you're on segregated cycle tracks not "holding up" the traffic and feeling like you need to cycle fast to fit in.

> - when it rains you get super wet, much more than on a motorbike, because you have less protection and you don't carry special rain trousers with you at all times (whereas they're permanently stored on my motorbike)

A set of mudguards is a necessity for pleasant commuting (in the UK, at least), as is carrying a packable waterproof jacket.

I don't personally worry about my trousers so much, I wear jeans with a slight waterproof treating, and if it's particularly wet before I leave, I will wear cycling specific clothing or take a change of clothes.

> - also, when it rains, if you cover yourself up to avoid the rain, you get even hotter and sweatier

Can't really argue with this but there is a saying that there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing. Just because something is waterproof, it doesn't mean it will be pleasant to wear on a bike. Typically, the more you spend, the better balance the clothing will provide between waterproofness and breathability.

I don't know how much it rains in Paris, you could only ride on dry days? It's remarkable how little it rains in London.

> - Paris isn't flat! (contrary to Amsterdam...) and some hills are very steep

Hills can usually be conquered fairly easily with the correct set of gears but I can see how it would be off-putting.

> - some distances are irrealistic for bikes: I have two clients who are 15km apart and (to me) 15km on a bike is a fairly long ride

You wouldn't run a marathon straight out if you were starting to run, so if you're starting to ride your bike, begin with short distances and slowly build up the distance if you want to.