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“Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

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Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#41
post #10
post #7

Having worked as researcher/dev in both private office and open space setup, I am absolutely convinced that private offices are way more productive than open office setup for researchers and developers. Most, if not all, of my colleagues feel the same. In fact, I don't think I will ever accept an offer from a mature company (not startup) which houses its developers in open space.

The only redeeming feature of open plan comes from Hamming's essay, you and your research: Another trait, it took me a while to notice. I noticed the following facts about people who work with the door open or the door closed. I notice that if you have the door to your office closed, you get more work ✥ done today and tomorrow, and you are more productive than most. But 10 years later somehow you don't ✥ know quite k…

Sitting in an office with the door open to welcome impromptu conversation is very different from, and much preferable to, sitting in an open floor plan with no privacy whatsoever. Hamming's essay doesn't redeem the open plan at all.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#42
post #30
post #7

Having worked as researcher/dev in both private office and open space setup, I am absolutely convinced that private offices are way more productive than open office setup for researchers and developers. Most, if not all, of my colleagues feel the same. In fact, I don't think I will ever accept an offer from a mature company (not startup) which houses its developers in open space.

For me, open office + headphones = private office. At a vastly reduced cost. I know that doesn't work for everyone though.

+ hearing damage in a couple of decades

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#43
post #30
post #7

Having worked as researcher/dev in both private office and open space setup, I am absolutely convinced that private offices are way more productive than open office setup for researchers and developers. Most, if not all, of my colleagues feel the same. In fact, I don't think I will ever accept an offer from a mature company (not startup) which houses its developers in open space.

For me, open office + headphones = private office. At a vastly reduced cost. I know that doesn't work for everyone though.

And when you allow for private working areas it is going to be very difficult for developers et al to argue against this trend. Everything has seemingly been thought of e.g. if you are sick give free flu shots and health checks to employees.

I am working in a company that is redesigning the building to be more open plan. It is clear that HR is driving the decision not architects or interior designers.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if the research is that crystal clear right now. I have no doubt that developers will write more code whilst in offices free of distraction. But the question is do they miss out on key business knowledge by not being around other people. Especially if they are in Agile feature teams.

> But the question is do they miss out on key business knowledge by not being around other people. Considering the amount of money and effort engineers put into blocking distractions in open-plan offices, it is probably about the same.

Again the trend seems to be mixed plan. Open plan offices with private areas.

In which case you can not argue that there is significant money/effort involved. It's either the cost of headphones and the effort of walking tens of metres. Developers are going to need better arguments than that to convince HR/Management that this is not a trend worth doing.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#45
I will never work in an open office plan. It's one of the items on my "prima donna" list. Despite the name I'm pretty serious, and while some of this list represents things that others might not be able to avoid, or even agree with because they are personal preferences, all of the items are the result of bad experiences or missteps I've experienced directly at a job in the past.

I know some may object to these. That's ok, this is my list. I'll answer questions though and I'm open to suggestions.

Here's my list, developed over 25 years working for companies, mostly startups:

Never work...

0. where you're not getting equity along with a paycheck, or where you can't ask the CFO how many shares are outstanding on a fully diluted basis, and get an answer, during your interview.

1. for a manager who is not an engineer, unless you're the CTO.

2. Think twice working for any "tech" company where the CEO is not an engineer, or technically proficient. (Tim Cook is technically proficient, Jeff Bezos is not.)

3. in an open office plan.

4. for a company that shows disrespect for employees in other ways. Companies try to hide so you have to look close.

5. for a company that uses cult behavior, eg: "magic phrases" like Amazon's "Today is Day One!!", or that has a management book that all employees are supposed to read (if said book is of the pop-management variety)

6. for a company that doesn't provide you a convenient parking space at their expense (you should be working remote anyway!)

7. for a company that doesn't provide flex hours. Flex needs to really mean flex. Midnight to 8AM is an acceptable work schedule.

8. for any company with standup meetings, or other pointless meetings. (yeah yeah, all of the previous "SCRUM" teams have been "doing it wrong", so that just means nobodies doing it "right")

9. on a team where mandatory meetings happen more than twice a year

10. for a company that employs stack ranking, in any form.

11. for less than 3 weeks of vacation a year

12. for a "starter" salary that will be "made up later", unless this is a startup and you're getting a significant chunk of equity- eg: shares valued at most recent round of investment, or a $1M valuation if no investment, EXCEEDS the lost income.

12. for equity with a vesting schedule with an initial cliff longer than 90 days, (30 days is appropriate)

13. for equity with a vesting schedule over 4 years (and only 4 for > %5 equity)

14. for a company that has taken money from dishonest or unethical VCs (I know a lot of the bad ones but check "the funded" for reviews)

15. for a company that doesn't hire ops engineers, but expects developers to be "on call"

16. for a company that has a lot of restrictions about vacation and doesn't treat it as real (eg: you don't get all your days when you leave, bad PTO policies, etc)

17. in any office without adequate bathrooms, this includes any buildings where people are packed like sardines. combine the gender ratio of tech companies with more than %100 occupancy and the bathrooms are insufficient

18. in any setup with less than a dual thunderbolt display, or single 35"4k monitory.

19. on windows on a regular basis

20. where my development machine can't be a Mac

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#46
post #7

Having worked as researcher/dev in both private office and open space setup, I am absolutely convinced that private offices are way more productive than open office setup for researchers and developers. Most, if not all, of my colleagues feel the same. In fact, I don't think I will ever accept an offer from a mature company (not startup) which houses its developers in open space.

I think that there are pros and cons with both, however, I believe that a developer should have at least a "choice". With this I mean, for some of the work I do I can sit in a noisy environment and get stuff done, take e.g. doing some HTML or something else mostly "visual", however, when I need to focus and I am going to be juggling loads of tiny details in short term memory I want an environment that is quiet so I can focus.

The problem with a noisy open space environment is that my environment is going to decide when I can do work. When I have the inspiration to fix a problem and I need to be able to focus, this has to be on "my terms", not that of my environment.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#47
post #30
post #7

Having worked as researcher/dev in both private office and open space setup, I am absolutely convinced that private offices are way more productive than open office setup for researchers and developers. Most, if not all, of my colleagues feel the same. In fact, I don't think I will ever accept an offer from a mature company (not startup) which houses its developers in open space.

For me, open office + headphones = private office. At a vastly reduced cost. I know that doesn't work for everyone though.

It also equals hearing loss, but that doesn't show up on the company balance sheets.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#48
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only redeeming feature of open plan comes from Hamming's essay, you and your research: Another trait, it took me a while to notice. I noticed the following facts about people who work with the door open or the door closed. I notice that if you have the door to your office closed, you get more work ✥ done today and tomorrow, and you are more productive than most. But 10 years later somehow you don't ✥ know quite k…

I think Hamming's quote pretty much sums up my personal experience with both open and closed offices. In a private office, your personal productivity is maximized; you get the most lines of code written, the most research done, the hardest problems solved. And yet the cumulative effect of that productivity seems to be much less than that of peers who write little, endure distractions, but are always in tune with whic…

I think the real problem is one of aligning incentives. I would welcome open plan offices much more if I was incentivized for team performance.

Instead I get forced into open collaboration-enhancing offices with the idea of increasing team productivity. But on scrums and all other things I am judged on the merits of personal productivity (tickets closed, issues resolved, whatever). This leaves me disgruntled because I have no way of showing to project managers that I've helped N people with their issues. They only care how many issues I closed.

This then shapes my personal values and how I judge myself as well. Which in turn makes me shun the open plan office. Which in turn ultimately makes me a worse engineer a few years down the line.

This is a problem.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#49
post #45

I will never work in an open office plan. It's one of the items on my "prima donna" list. Despite the name I'm pretty serious, and while some of this list represents things that others might not be able to avoid, or even agree with because they are personal preferences, all of the items are the result of bad experiences or missteps I've experienced directly at a job in the past. I know some may object to these. That'…

I generally agree with this (although who fucking cares if the company doesn't give you parking but pays you $1k/mo more; if 90% of people use transit in SF, I'm fine with paying parking).

I think you underestimate Bezos's technical clue, though.

And a 1y cliff is pretty standard. There's no real downside to that.

Re: “Today we moved into our new Facebook building”

#50
post #45

I will never work in an open office plan. It's one of the items on my "prima donna" list. Despite the name I'm pretty serious, and while some of this list represents things that others might not be able to avoid, or even agree with because they are personal preferences, all of the items are the result of bad experiences or missteps I've experienced directly at a job in the past. I know some may object to these. That'…

May I ask if you are working now? If yes, are you hiring?
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