Data is at the heart of search, but who has access to it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Data is at the heart of search, but who has access to it?

#41

Post by ntakasaki » Mon, Mar 30, 2015, 4:10 PM UTC

castratikron wrote: post #36

ntakasaki wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is more open, a Chromebook or a Windows laptop or a Macbook? I would think a Windows laptop or a Macbook because the users and developers can install or develop any application, yet we have everyone singing the praises of heavily DRM'ed and locked up Chromebooks and iPads. Sometimes I feel it's more about Microsoft hate than about a free computing environment. At least RMS is consistent and is less prone to comp…

Chromebooks are locked up now? I thought you could install your own Linux on them. Don't some even use coreboot?

You can install Linux on Windows PCs without even needing to developer unlock, doesn't that mean they're as open as Chroembooks. Not to mention things like if the battery goes completely dead on some Chromebooks, Linux is completely wiped along with the data and replaced by ChromeOS. Also have to press Ctrl-D past a vscary warning on every single boot on some Chromebooks or flash a new bios.

Can Mozilla make a Firefox for ChromeOS? How many Chromebooks that are being dumped in the education space are having Linux installed on them? Google has root on ChromeOS and the user doesn't. The whole purpose of them is to force the user into uploading all their data into Google's cloud. That's why even a $1400 machine has a paltry 64GB of storage but comes free with a few years of 1TB space on Google Drive.

Re: Data is at the heart of search, but who has access to it?

#42

Post by asuffield » Mon, Mar 30, 2015, 4:14 PM UTC

rockdoe wrote: post #29

asuffield wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notice that this is a feature you have to turn on (try it!). Obviously in order to perform cross-device synchronisation, it's necessary to send this information. I'm not free to discuss the details of how these systems work, but consider this: if both the statements "Google will store this information" and "the fact that you are using Chrome does not cause Google to receive any special or additional personally identi…

Notice that this is a feature you have to turn on (try it!). Can you use an Android phone without this? AFAIK that's essentially impossible without very deep technical knowledge.

Yes, you can. If you use a clean Nexus build then last time I tried it, the behaviour was that the first time I opened Chrome it asked me if I wanted to sign in to chrome to share my history and bookmarks between devices, and I had a simple yes/no choice. I don't think this needed any deep technical knowledge.

I'm not intimately familiar with the android chrome settings UI, so I apologise if I've missed an easier way, but in about 30 seconds of tapping I found the button to turn it off: main settings page, accounts, my google account, sync, uncheck chrome.

Re: Data is at the heart of search, but who has access to it?

#43

Post by thallukrish » Mon, Mar 30, 2015, 4:14 PM UTC

Only when user can own his data which means Apps are just logics and user can allow access to whomever whatever selectively we can suddenly find more genuine things reaching the user be it commerce or content.

Re: Data is at the heart of search, but who has access to it?

#44

Post by asuffield » Mon, Mar 30, 2015, 4:20 PM UTC

rockdoe wrote: post #35

asuffield wrote: post #22

(Tedious disclaimer: my opinion, not my employers. Not representing anybody else. I work at Google, not on search quality) This article makes a number of bold claims about the contents of data and code which its author hasn't seen, and is written by a company that is receiving a large amount of money from Yahoo. I would encourage people not to forget these details.

So just point out where it's wrong, instead of making a fairly disingenuous appeal to non-authority or however you want to call it?

I don't speak for the company, but I don't think we're going to respond to an attack piece by the Mozilla CTO by disclosing how our search algorithm works. ;)

In any event I'm not a person who can decide to release that information. All I can do here is to ask people to think about what evidence has been offered and the motives behind this article.

Re: Data is at the heart of search, but who has access to it?

#45

Post by dheera » Mon, Mar 30, 2015, 4:21 PM UTC

jfuhrman wrote: post #38

>In Germany, for example, where Google has over 95% market share, competing search engines don’t have access to adequate past search data to deliver search results that are as relevant as Google’s. And, because their search results aren’t as relevant as Google’s, it’s difficult for them to attract new users. You could call it a vicious circle. This is interesting because of the browser choice enforced by the EU on Wi…

Ethics and morality aside, I'm curious what allows the EU to "enforce" laws on a US company. Let's say Google and Microsoft don't register entities in the EU. Can they do anything?

Can Microsoft and other US-based technology companies theoretically just keep doing their own thing, tell the EU government "to hell with it, we're abiding by US laws, you have a choice to stop importing Windows and invent your own OS if you don't like us"?

Re: Data is at the heart of search, but who has access to it?

#46

Post by jfuhrman » Mon, Mar 30, 2015, 4:23 PM UTC

dheera wrote: post #45

jfuhrman wrote: post #38

>In Germany, for example, where Google has over 95% market share, competing search engines don’t have access to adequate past search data to deliver search results that are as relevant as Google’s. And, because their search results aren’t as relevant as Google’s, it’s difficult for them to attract new users. You could call it a vicious circle. This is interesting because of the browser choice enforced by the EU on Wi…

Ethics and morality aside, I'm curious what allows the EU to "enforce" laws on a US company. Let's say Google and Microsoft don't register entities in the EU. Can they do anything? Can Microsoft and other US-based technology companies theoretically just keep doing their own thing, tell the EU government "to hell with it, we're abiding by US laws, you have a choice to stop importing Windows and invent your own OS if y…

Sure they can, but it's a huge market almost on par with the US and it opens them up elsewhere in the world to competition emanating from the void they leave in the EU, i.e alternate OSes and search engines.

Re: Data is at the heart of search, but who has access to it?

#47

Post by ksk » Mon, Mar 30, 2015, 4:26 PM UTC

asuffield wrote: post #20

minthd wrote: post #16

So, since Google tracks the full browsing experience of chrome users, and hence gets more relevant data than for other browsers users, it has the theoretical ability to offer better search results to chrome users. Has anybody noticed this happening ?

(Tedious disclaimer: my opinion, not my employers. Not representing anybody else. I work at Google, not on chrome) Google does not "track the full browsing experience of chrome users". Please read the privacy policy which is very clear on this subject: https://www.google.com/chrome/browser/privacy/ I particularly draw your attention to this paragraph: "If you use Chrome to access other Google services, such as using…

The Google chrome omnibox is a keylogger that transmits all requests to Google. And the "prediction/auto suggest" and "phishing and malware" features allow Google to track all URLs visited by Chrome users. The "usage statistics" feature collects even more data. Normally, for a company that ships internet software, many of these features would be considered harmless, even beneficial. But for advertising companies like Google, who make their money by vacuuming up users data and allowing other companies to bid on their profiles, I think its almost impossible to trust you guys.

Also, FYI, the privacy policy is irrelevant. It only stats what a company might or might not do. The Terms of Service is the real deal - legally speaking - which of course Google can and does modify at their will, anytime they want to collect more data.

----------

"When you upload, submit, store, send or receive content to or through our Servicesǂ, you give Google (and those we work with) a worldwide license to use, host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works (such as those resulting from translations, adaptations or other changes we make so that your content works better with our Services), communicate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute such content. "

"This license continues even if you stop using our Services (for example, for a business listing you have added to Google Maps). "

http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/terms/

https://www.google.com/chrome/browser/privacy/eula_text.html

ǂYour use of Google’s products, software, services and web sites (referred to collectively as the “Services”

Re: Data is at the heart of search, but who has access to it?

#48

Post by dheera » Mon, Mar 30, 2015, 4:30 PM UTC

jfuhrman wrote: post #46

dheera wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethics and morality aside, I'm curious what allows the EU to "enforce" laws on a US company. Let's say Google and Microsoft don't register entities in the EU. Can they do anything? Can Microsoft and other US-based technology companies theoretically just keep doing their own thing, tell the EU government "to hell with it, we're abiding by US laws, you have a choice to stop importing Windows and invent your own OS if y…

Sure they can, but it's a huge market almost on par with the US and it opens them up elsewhere in the world to competition emanating from the void they leave in the EU, i.e alternate OSes and search engines.

I get this completely, although let's say Microsoft just ignored their requests for compliance. Would the EU seriously dare to ban Windows? I feel like they'd get outrage from their own locals and topple their own economy if they banned Windows, so they probably wouldn't. Therefore, does Microsoft need to care? Could they just sit around in Redmond and keep developing as long as the US doesn't care?

As for websites, some countries could just block a US website that doesn't comply with local regulations (e.g. China, Iran, Myanmar, et al.) and this has happened numerous times. But the EU? Having already reached a free speech society? Censoring a US website on the grounds of non-compliance with arbitrary one-sided demands would be at odds with their own established bill of rights.

Google said "to hell with it" to China and got blocked. But what if they did the same to the EU? I don't think the EU could block a website without causing serious upheaval from their own citizens.

Re: Data is at the heart of search, but who has access to it?

#49

Post by minthd » Mon, Mar 30, 2015, 4:39 PM UTC

asuffield wrote: post #27

minthd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe i'm reading this wrong, but this sounds like Google gets your browsing history: "If you sign in to Chrome browser, Chrome OS or an Android device that includes Chrome as a preinstalled application with your Google Account, this will enable the synchronization feature. Google will store certain information, such as HISTORY, bookmarked URLs as well as an image and a sample of text from the bookmarked page, passwo…

Notice that this is a feature you have to turn on (try it!). Obviously in order to perform cross-device synchronisation, it's necessary to send this information. I'm not free to discuss the details of how these systems work, but consider this: if both the statements "Google will store this information" and "the fact that you are using Chrome does not cause Google to receive any special or additional personally identi…

Of course "the fact that you are using Chrome does not cause Google to receive any special or additional personally identifying information about you." could be true.

But Agreeing to sign to the history sync feature is something different , not covered by "using Google Chrome".So now Google is free to use your history.

And let's be realistic here. Most people don't think about the implications of login into Google(even if it says sync of bookmarks , history etc) and probably don't read the instructions. Many even don't understand what it means. And realistically most people see a Google login box which they filled a million times, and fill it once more, as a sort of a pavlovian response.

Re: Data is at the heart of search, but who has access to it?

#50

Post by eveningcoffee » Mon, Mar 30, 2015, 4:49 PM UTC

ntakasaki wrote: post #33

pain wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Jobs did great harm to the world with his iThings: computers designed to be jails for their users. His genius was to find the way to make these jails desirable so that millions would clamor to be locked up." —Richard Stallman

What is more open, a Chromebook or a Windows laptop or a Macbook? I would think a Windows laptop or a Macbook because the users and developers can install or develop any application, yet we have everyone singing the praises of heavily DRM'ed and locked up Chromebooks and iPads. Sometimes I feel it's more about Microsoft hate than about a free computing environment. At least RMS is consistent and is less prone to comp…

I think he was talking about iPhones and iPads that helped to create a marked for locked down hardware systems where nor developers of the software and users of the software have no say.