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To tip or not to tip?

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Re: To tip or not to tip?

#41

Post by tass »

dyadic wrote: post #36
fakename wrote: post #31

I ate at a restaurant in Berkeley a few weeks ago that doesn't accept tips, but instead automatically adds a 20% gratuity to your bill. This is a good first step, but I wish they would go one further and increase the price of menu items by 20%, rather than separating the prices.

I like seeing the service included in the bill, it makes it explicit that it's a separate thing from the dinner and something that I'm paying for.

How is the server's wage different from the rest of the cost of the meal (profit, chef's wage, rent, electricity, carpet cleaning, etc.)?

Re: To tip or not to tip?

#42

Post by acjohnson55 »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #25
acjohnson55 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the parent poster mentioned anything about large tips. I myself read complaints about poor tips constantly in my Facebook feed, usually from the same disgruntled couple of service industry friends of mine. But then again, I don't think I have that many more friends in the service industry. As far as I can see, tipping is not adds frustrating unpredictability to their income, but it also exposes them to…

If you left their income solely up to their employers, it would be more predictable. But it would also almost certainly be considerably lower.

You're suggesting that, in the status quo, some aspect of the tipping system is tilting the distribution of revenue toward servers instead of employers. Why do you think so?

Re: To tip or not to tip?

#43

Post by waterlesscloud »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #42
waterlesscloud wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you left their income solely up to their employers, it would be more predictable. But it would also almost certainly be considerably lower.

You're suggesting that, in the status quo, some aspect of the tipping system is tilting the distribution of revenue toward servers instead of employers. Why do you think so?

Yep, that's what I'm saying.

If servers were paid entirely by the employers directly, they'd be paid the least amount that got an acceptable level of employee. Same as all other service industry jobs.

Since the payment was coming from the employer, it would be included in the meal price. Meal price is a competitive factor for restaurants, and all else being equal, those restaurants with lower meal prices will do better than equivalent restaurants with higher meal prices. The pressure to have lower meal prices would lead to lower pay for the employees. That would be one of the easiest places to cut costs, and thus prices.

Customers don't, as a rule, include tips in their evaluation of meal prices. So it removes the downward competitive pressure there.

What this really boils down to is that customers are more generous with direct payments to servers than their employers would be. Do you think this isn't true? Why?

Re: To tip or not to tip?

#44

Post by gmays »

I typically tip quite generously (20-25%), but I hate the idea of tipping. I'd much prefer it was just included in the bill.

What bugs me the most is that it makes me stop and think about what to tip, which is why I always tip around the same amount.

I also don't always know when to tip. For example, I have a house cleaner coming this weekend. Is it customary to tip a house cleaner?

Re: To tip or not to tip?

#45

Post by waterlesscloud »

pavlov wrote: post #40
dyadic wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like seeing the service included in the bill, it makes it explicit that it's a separate thing from the dinner and something that I'm paying for.

So how about separate charges for cleaning and accounting? The restaurant pays for a lot of other things too that are not directly part of the dinner. I don't understand why service should be considered special.

Because the service is a direct and prominent factor in your experience of the meal.

Re: To tip or not to tip?

#46

Post by maratd »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #25
acjohnson55 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the parent poster mentioned anything about large tips. I myself read complaints about poor tips constantly in my Facebook feed, usually from the same disgruntled couple of service industry friends of mine. But then again, I don't think I have that many more friends in the service industry. As far as I can see, tipping is not adds frustrating unpredictability to their income, but it also exposes them to…

If you left their income solely up to their employers, it would be more predictable. But it would also almost certainly be considerably lower.

> But it would also almost certainly be considerably lower.

No, it wouldn't. It would be exactly the same. Because their employer knows exactly how much they will get in tips and subtracted that same amount from their salary. The cost of labor is constant, regardless of how you divide it.

Re: To tip or not to tip?

#47

Post by waterlesscloud »

maratd wrote: post #46
waterlesscloud wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you left their income solely up to their employers, it would be more predictable. But it would also almost certainly be considerably lower.

> But it would also almost certainly be considerably lower. No, it wouldn't. It would be exactly the same. Because their employer knows exactly how much they will get in tips and subtracted that same amount from their salary. The cost of labor is constant, regardless of how you divide it.

Frankly, you're just flat out wrong on this. If the employer can capture this income, they will. You're welcome to present evidence otherwise.

Re: To tip or not to tip?

#48

Post by eridius »

vmarsy wrote: post #37
eridius wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're drawing a false correlation here between no-tip countries and poor service. There may be countries that don't have a custom of tipping and also have poor service, but there's very little reason to think that the two are actually related. For the same reason, there's very little to think that level of service in restaurants in the US is related to the expectation of the tip. More generally, if a country…

That might be a false correlation indeed, however I disagree when you say: "there's very little to think that level of service in restaurants in the US is related to the expectation of the tip" waiters with good work ethics will offer a great service no matter if there is a tip involved in the end or not. Those with poor work ethics however would care less about providing a good service. I didn't mean to sound insult…

Except there's extremely little correlation between level of service provided and amount tipped.

Re: To tip or not to tip?

#49

Post by jeremysmyth »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #45
pavlov wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how about separate charges for cleaning and accounting? The restaurant pays for a lot of other things too that are not directly part of the dinner. I don't understand why service should be considered special.

Because the service is a direct and prominent factor in your experience of the meal.

So are the ingredients, the recipe, and the individual elements of the cooking. I also personally rate restaurants on the comfort and style of the furnishing, the "ambience", the location, and events, if any (a Lebanese restaurant I like occasionally has a belly dancer).

None of these are separately itemized on my bill, nor would I expect them to be.

Re: To tip or not to tip?

#50

Post by scotty79 »

joesmo wrote: post #15

"Tipping looks like an anachronistic hangover from a time when restaurant staff were the lowest of the low" This is unfortunately still the case in America. I can't believe the author writes a long, elaborate article mentioning tipping in America without mentioning the minimum wage for food service in the US. Federally, it's currently $2.13/hr though employers are required to compensate employees so they make at leas…

> "Tipping looks like an anachronistic hangover from a time when restaurant staff were the lowest of the low" > This is unfortunately still the case in America.

Which is enabled by tipping.

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