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Understand contracts before you sign them
41–50 of 93 posts
Re: Understand contracts before you sign them
#42I had you analyze the monster 37 page lease I just signed for a new apartment. It looked mostly boilerplate to me with several addendums attached. I'm not sure your engine was able to process the PDF, it just sort of spit back a page of "issues" that were garbled text and weird characters. I can't seem to get back to the page I was on now either.
Re: Understand contracts before you sign them
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, I read every contract I sign my name to, or prevent myself from taking that action. I didnt start doing this until I was probably about 16 or 17 and realized the terms that people were tying themselves to, and often that said terms were legally binding. I have had employers and peers ridicule me when I take my time to always read everything in the contract, and I simply dont care, I will continue to do it anyway…
Honest question, how do you get anything else done? I'm in the coffee shop for my morning hacker news dose, and I've already interacted with 2-3 contracts in the form of EULAs in the 20 minutes I've been here. If I took the time to read and comprehend each of those (while looking for changes in one I've read before, after all there's usually a "terms may change without prior notice" clause), I wouldn't have done anyt…
Trying not to be hyperbolic since some people apparently didnt like my earlier comments, but it doesnt take that long to read most contracts unless they are purposefully misleading.
Most EULAs have very little original content and dont require deep analysis.
Considering those 2-3 things you signed up for or agreed to meant, even insignificantly, that you have given away something of your rights, I think it absolutely behooves anyone to spend the time to decide if those random websites are worth it if they make you agree to a EULA that is pages and pages long.
The point about terms may change without prior notice is fair, I still struggle to regularly read the various changes to the TOS for things as simple as my credit card (which have way WAY shittier contracts to read compared to a EULA). Wile I have seen some services which could provide a diff and notify you on changes, I have decided it is better to not use abusive services instead of play a game of cat and mouse with them.
Re: Understand contracts before you sign them
#44I'm always shocked by the number of people who don't read the contracts they sign. It's one thing if you have hundreds of pages of legalese in front of you - I can see the value of a service such as this, or hiring your own lawyer for such cases - but for a few pages, five minutes of your time max, I just don't understand why so many people don't take the time to do so. One habit I've noticed in highly successful peo…
I was given a non employee poaching contract to sign when I gave my notice at BIGCORP. It had some vague language like "I will not attempt to contact any BIGCORP employees with information about other positions". I gave it back to the manager at the exit interview unsigned and said nice try. I guess they are just hoping someone doesn't read it.
Re: Understand contracts before you sign them
#45I'm always shocked by the number of people who don't read the contracts they sign. It's one thing if you have hundreds of pages of legalese in front of you - I can see the value of a service such as this, or hiring your own lawyer for such cases - but for a few pages, five minutes of your time max, I just don't understand why so many people don't take the time to do so. One habit I've noticed in highly successful peo…
Since you wanted anecdotal stories, I've known multiple relatively successful people (not billionaires, but millionaires who moved in high powered social circles) who didn't read the contracts for their rental cars or hotel rooms.
It's not a particularly interesting anecdote. The anecdotes aren't interesting. Nothing ever came of not reading the contracts, but they were successful people who didn't take ten minutes to read a contract.
Re: Understand contracts before you sign them
#46I'm always shocked by the number of people who don't read the contracts they sign. It's one thing if you have hundreds of pages of legalese in front of you - I can see the value of a service such as this, or hiring your own lawyer for such cases - but for a few pages, five minutes of your time max, I just don't understand why so many people don't take the time to do so. One habit I've noticed in highly successful peo…
In Australia, we have some beneficial consumer laws (eg prohibiting misleading conduct in trade or commerce), and I have heard of some people deliberately not reading contracts so that they can rely on favourable oral representations made to them by the other party, which could be a big business representative or (more commonly) a shop assistant or clerk. The idea is that it doesn't matter whether the contract (often handed to you at the same time) says anything different to what you were told by the representative, provided that you don't know what the contract says and are genuinely relying on what you were told (and can later prove what they told you). There are some other caveats too but you get the idea. You do leave yourself open to the risk of agreeing to other nasty clauses in the contract wholly unrelated to what was said to you though.
Re: Understand contracts before you sign them
#47We have the ability to calculate a rough estimate of the time required to read a given text. This means we can create a law that states that for a contract to be valid, each party must be given at least 80% of that time[1] for the contract to be considered valid. Don't want to give the necessary 30-60min? Don't write so long of a contract, or figure out a way to do without. [1] 20% is to remove any margin of error in…
There's no need for such a law.[1] If you haven't read it, or if you don't understand it, don't sign it. Problem solved. If you don't have the confidence to ask for time to consider or seek advice about a contract you've been asked to sign, that is a different problem. [1] In some jurisdictions there is a statutory 'cooling off' period for particular classes of contract (eg five business days for the sale of resident…
In theory, the "cooling off" periods you mention should cover the "minimum time" requirements that I'm suggesting. The devil is in the details, of course, but such periods where the contract being negotiated can still be called off would account for my concerns.
As for the rest of contract law, this very thread exists because of the problem of people not actually reading contracts. We can't make people read them, and we can't make sure that people understand what a contract contains[1].
What we can do is show that one of the requirements for a contract[2] hasn't been met.
I'm totally fine with skipping this requirement if it is the 2nd or later time you've signed the contract. I would also say that a business that wrote the contract has obviously met the time requirement already. This types of details are flexible and open to negotiation.
I am simply suggesting that trowing a multi-page contract at someone and letting them sign it seconds later shouldn't count as a valid contract, and that we can now calculate a lower bound length of time. It would be nice if this encouraged shorter contracts in some situations or favoring common language over what most people consider obtuse legalease, but this is not required.
[1] but maybe we should
[2] the "meeting of the minds", or mutual agreement to the contents of the contract and requirements of each party
Re: Understand contracts before you sign them
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's no need for such a law.[1] If you haven't read it, or if you don't understand it, don't sign it. Problem solved. If you don't have the confidence to ask for time to consider or seek advice about a contract you've been asked to sign, that is a different problem. [1] In some jurisdictions there is a statutory 'cooling off' period for particular classes of contract (eg five business days for the sale of resident…
In theory, the "cooling off" periods you mention should cover the "minimum time" requirements that I'm suggesting. The devil is in the details, of course, but such periods where the contract being negotiated can still be called off would account for my concerns. As for the rest of contract law, this very thread exists because of the problem of people not actually reading contracts. We can't make people read them, and…
I understand the concern, and I agree that real problems arise - relatively often - when people don't take the time to read and understand contracts before they sign them. I don't have any data for the following assertion, but I would hazard a guess that the reason most people don't read contracts is not that they do not have the time to read them, but that they do not want to take the time to read them.
I think building in a cooling off period is not likely to incentivise people to take the time to read and understand their contracts. The experience of reading and trying to understand a contract is too unpleasant. Could the experience be made more pleasant? I don't know, but if you find a way to crack that nut, you might find a unicorn inside.
Re: Understand contracts before you sign them
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you read the entire End User License Agreement before clicking 'Install'?
Yes, I read every contract I sign my name to, or prevent myself from taking that action. I didnt start doing this until I was probably about 16 or 17 and realized the terms that people were tying themselves to, and often that said terms were legally binding. I have had employers and peers ridicule me when I take my time to always read everything in the contract, and I simply dont care, I will continue to do it anyway…
Me too, especially when the presentation of the contract indicates that the other party desires information asymmetry (e.g. they look impatient and try to rush you, or they have a huge contract in a tiny scrolling window on their site). You have to be ready to walk away from the deal too, or why bother?
Still, I see some totally one-sided (and what I believe to be unenforceable) terms sometimes and I may sign anyway. For the other party to actually get what they want requires a lot more work than just getting my signature, and I'm firmly in the "Fucking sue me" camp. Classic blog post from Pud that everyone worried about contracts should read: http://pud.com/post/10103947044/fucking-sue-me
Re: Understand contracts before you sign them
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
In theory, the "cooling off" periods you mention should cover the "minimum time" requirements that I'm suggesting. The devil is in the details, of course, but such periods where the contract being negotiated can still be called off would account for my concerns. As for the rest of contract law, this very thread exists because of the problem of people not actually reading contracts. We can't make people read them, and…
I understand the concern, and I agree that real problems arise - relatively often - when people don't take the time to read and understand contracts before they sign them. I don't have any data for the following assertion, but I would hazard a guess that the reason most people don't read contracts is not that they do not have the time to read them, but that they do not want to take the time to read them. I think buil…
>people don't take the time to read and understand contracts before they sign them
Should an individual be bound by an agreement they did not understand when they entered into it? Take phone contracts. Every time I've spoken with a sales person, they outright lied to me about the contract. I'm one of the only individuals who sit down and read the contract realizing where they lied to me. But friend and parents are far more trusting and have been tricked numerous times.
Given the evidence that companies are exploiting both customer's trust and customers limited understanding (especially when you consider that many below average individuals are signing these contracts), I feel these contracts should be just as valid as a contract signed by a 7 year old.