Show me the salary! • Hacker News Board

Re: Show me the salary!

#41

Post by johnward » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 2:29 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #38

Mister_Snuggles wrote: post #12

I've got a handful of general rules around salary that tell me not to apply for certain jobs: - I don't apply to jobs that don't list a salary range. This is a red flag that tells me that the employer doesn't have the budget to pay market rates and that applying and interviewing could be a colossal waste of time for both of us. I get that the employer may not be willing to pay what I want based on my experience, etc,…

What's amazing to me is all the recruiters who call you to ask if you want to do temp-to-perm work when you have a full-time job. Why would you agree to that?

I just said the same thing. Unless I absolutely couldn't stand another day in my full time gig I would never leave for temp work.

Re: Show me the salary!

#42

Post by Iftheshoefits » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 2:36 PM UTC

MikeTaylor wrote: post #17

This is simple. I won't waste my time applying for a job that doesn't even bother to tell me what they're going to pay -- any more than I would buy a car without knowing its engine capacity, mileage, etc. The idea is idiotic. So: the only people who will apply for jobs with no salary listed are the ones desperate for any job. Are they the people you want to hire?

There's a difference between not posting salary and not telling a potential candidate when asked. Given that in America at least incredibly few companies post salary ranges to the public it is a stretch (and insulting) to claim applicants for positions with no posted salary are desperate.

Re: Show me the salary!

#43

Post by joncalhoun » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 2:36 PM UTC

BrentOzar wrote: post #24

As a small business owner who's done a few successful casting calls, the problem with this article comes down to their first answer: > Yes, you have quantity, but what about quality? How much time will you spend sorting the wheat from the chaff? How much application spam will you have to review and dispose of? And of the relevant ones, how many under- and over-qualified candidates do you need to sift through because…

I would respect a company significantly more if this is how the negotiations started. It addresses their need to determine if their range is on par with the market rate, and it allows both parties to minimize wasted time if they aren't.

Sadly I rarely see this happen in practice. It would be nice to see studies about how this affects the average cost to recruit a new employee.

Re: Show me the salary!

#44

Post by UK-AL » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 2:36 PM UTC

vkjv wrote: post #9

amelius wrote: post #5

I wonder what happens if test-engineer Bob finds out that there is a new job-opening for a test-engineer in his company, with a salary that is significantly higher than his own current salary.

He asks for his salary to be re-aligned with industry standards and in many cases they will oblige. In most cases, businesses are reasonable. They aren't going to volunteer to pay you more out of the goodness of their heart, but (most) of the time it doesn't hurt to ask. Just don't go threatening to leave if they don't.

You don't threaten to leave. You leave.

Re: Show me the salary!

#45

Post by notahacker » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 2:36 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #28

notahacker wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you can afford to stretch your range up to attract an elite candidate you will do. Explaining to people who are perfectly well qualified for the job including your own existing employees why they're at the bottom of the range is an uncomfortable conversation... much more uncomfortable than explaining why an actually-hired elite candidate whose been given additional responsibilities earns 50% more salary.

This is bull. It's about concealing from the people who are at the bottom of the range who don't deserve it. THAT'S an awkward conversation to have.

Sure, that's also awkward, but it doesn't alter the reality that many firms are perfectly happy with their existing employees, expect to fill positions with similar calibre candidates, but are prepared to pay a lot more for better.

Re: Show me the salary!

#46

Post by gambiting » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 2:36 PM UTC

I work in the games industry in the UK and if there is any greater secret than the games we work on, it's definitely our salaries. NO ONE will even mention how much they make, and that's because the industry pays much worse than anything else. I was even openly told in the interview that yeah, they know that this position pays 10k(GBP) less than a similar position anywhere else,but it's the games industry so that's what is it. And that's with one of the largest games studios in the world. If I didn't love what I do, I would have left ages ago.

Re: Show me the salary!

#47

Post by serve_yay » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 2:39 PM UTC

Iftheshoefits wrote: post #42

MikeTaylor wrote: post #17

This is simple. I won't waste my time applying for a job that doesn't even bother to tell me what they're going to pay -- any more than I would buy a car without knowing its engine capacity, mileage, etc. The idea is idiotic. So: the only people who will apply for jobs with no salary listed are the ones desperate for any job. Are they the people you want to hire?

There's a difference between not posting salary and not telling a potential candidate when asked. Given that in America at least incredibly few companies post salary ranges to the public it is a stretch (and insulting) to claim applicants for positions with no posted salary are desperate.

Also the analog to buying a car would be signing the contract. Not interviewing.

Re: Show me the salary!

#48

Post by odonnellryan » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 2:40 PM UTC

BrentOzar wrote: post #24

As a small business owner who's done a few successful casting calls, the problem with this article comes down to their first answer: > Yes, you have quantity, but what about quality? How much time will you spend sorting the wheat from the chaff? How much application spam will you have to review and dispose of? And of the relevant ones, how many under- and over-qualified candidates do you need to sift through because…

This is the opposite of how a lot of hiring managers I know think.

The tactic they use (how can anyone think this is a good idea...) is to hope by the end of the interview process the candidate will be so attached to the position (or invested at this point! see: throwing good money after bad, or the sunk cost fallacy) to refuse! Or maybe they'll just ask for 5k more, or something.

Re: Show me the salary!

#49

Post by NickPollard » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 2:42 PM UTC

BrentOzar wrote: post #24

As a small business owner who's done a few successful casting calls, the problem with this article comes down to their first answer: > Yes, you have quantity, but what about quality? How much time will you spend sorting the wheat from the chaff? How much application spam will you have to review and dispose of? And of the relevant ones, how many under- and over-qualified candidates do you need to sift through because…

This only works if the candidates still apply. A lot of the time I choose not to apply for roles without posted salaries, because there's a good chance I'm either over- or under-qualified for the role. Applying to a job takes time and effort to do properly (and it's worth doing properly).

As other people have said, you can post a range rather than a single number, and that number doesn't have to be 100% ironclad - if a range is 5-10% out for me, I'd probably still apply and try to negotiate - but I'm not going to waste my time applying for jobs only to find out they're offering £50k if I want £100k.

Check out the jobs posted here: http://oxfordknight.co.uk/jobs/

They all have salary ranges, many are quite broad, but it communicates quite clearly the level that both parties should be thinking about when entering into negotiations. So much more useful.

Re: Show me the salary!

#50

Post by harperlee » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 2:43 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #37

This one bugs me "Recruiter: “Why don’t you tell me how much you think you’re worth?”" Well... what I'm worth to a company depends a whole hell of a lot on how good they are operationally. Company A may be able to extract $500k of value per year from my skills. Company B may only be able to extract $80k of value from my skills. What am I "worth"? It's largely dependent on the environment I'm operating in, and how goo…

This is a very interesting comment. I've never thought of it that way, but you could argue - for big corporations at least, where they are sufficiently mature - that lower pay expectations on their side signals structural problems. Raising that point on the negotiation might even be useful, as you move from "what can I prove /how much can I convince them that I am worth?", where all the burden is on me, to a more equitable position where they need to put guesstimates on the table.