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Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

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Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#41

Post by Touche »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #9

The answer is a gritty, in-your-face "no". We have a recurring situation where all vendors (save for Apple) show interest in standard, but because Apple does not express that same interest, the standard gets waylaid. That is literally not true – Google, by some metrics the biggest vendor, has also shown no interest in PE. Frankly, I don't see that much of a problem with Webkit and its' adherence to standards. Broadly…

They released IndexedDB several years after everyone else (I believe at least 3 years) and major bugs.

They have shown no interest in Web Components.

They have shown no interest in WebRTC.

They have shown no interest in Service Workers.

They have very little ES6 support.

Let's not focus on the one example given in the article, this is a pattern.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#42

Post by mbel »

fpgeek wrote: post #34
mbel wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems worth noticing that this is more political than technological argument. Google choose not to implement Pointer Events and used Apple as a scapegoat. I'm not happy with Apple's decision, but I'm even less happy with Google using Apple as some kind of feature implementation oracle.

This isn't Google using Apple as a feature implementation oracle, this is Google looking at pointer events using both their "web developer" and "browser developer" hats and reaching a disappointing conclusion. As a web developer, Google would have to use Touch Events because that's all that Apple supports. Chrome already supports Touch Events. That covers the overwhelming majority of their touch-enabled users, with c…

Thanks for the reply, honestly I haven't thought about Google as web developer. Another point that I unfortunately missed is that if Apple implemented Pointer Events in WebKit, then the changes could probably be ported very quickly to Blink (I guess both code bases are still largely similar).

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#43

Post by frou_dh »

Touche wrote: post #36
frou_dh wrote: post #31

As far as I'm concerned, Apple still have a bit of time left to bask in the afterglow granted for mortally wounding Flash by keeping it off of iOS.

Really? That was 7 years ago.

And yet it was only a few weeks ago that YouTube started serving HTML5 video by default on the desktop (yes I know there was a flakey cookie-based opt-in earlier).

There and elsewhere I was/am STILL having to spoof my desktop user-agent to pretend to be a phone to get around "Flash is REQUIRED to view this content" roadblocks.

Ideally Flash needs a bullet to the head, but I credit Apple with the best strike on it so far.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#44

Post by jpea »

WebRTC is a huge one that comes to mind. With the App Store and Facetime in the same wheelhouse, there's no compelling reason to develop this area for Apple. It would be a HUGE win for the general web if they did, but there's zero reason for them to pursue it.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#45

Post by 542458 »

CSMastermind wrote: post #14
mootothemax wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they really? ... It's a Microsoft-backed spec that only Microsoft supports. Exactly, you've hit the nail on the head. It seems a bit strange to single out Apple when there are plenty of other vendors also not implementing it. That said , I know very little about the history of mobile browser development; have Apple historically dragged their feet on mobile Safari?

Apple is singled out because they're the driver behind all of this. Touch Events was born from Apple's initial work to touch-enable Safari on the iPhone. W3C moved to standardize it but Apple declined to be involved in the effort. Then they blocked the WC3 from releasing it as a standard using their patents, which they were unwilling to offer a royalty free grant for users of the spec. Pointer Events was first propos…

> Their stated rationale was that because Apple was unlikely to ever support Pointer Events and Apple is the dominate force in the mobile web; Touch Events would always be required.

That's only one of their reasons.

https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=162757#c...

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1qRqLKQjOnGgrM-UkMAb2...

In particular, see the notes in slide 6. They have several reasons that include performance, flexibility, and compatibility.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#46

Post by towelguy »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #2

Are they really? Other browser vendors also refuse to implement things sometimes. IE has taken its sweet time on certain technologies, entirely deliberately. Google have tried to force standards with their marketshare. Pointer Events is an odd case. It's a Microsoft-backed spec that only Microsoft supports. Apple won't implement it, Google won't, Mozilla's implementation is unfinished. Touch Events is also weird: onl…

> It's a Microsoft-backed spec

So it's a case of Not Invented Here? or more accurate: Invented By the Enemy?

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#47

Post by 542458 »

pcx wrote: post #21
matthewmacleod wrote: post #9

The answer is a gritty, in-your-face "no". We have a recurring situation where all vendors (save for Apple) show interest in standard, but because Apple does not express that same interest, the standard gets waylaid. That is literally not true – Google, by some metrics the biggest vendor, has also shown no interest in PE. Frankly, I don't see that much of a problem with Webkit and its' adherence to standards. Broadly…

> If we had Apple on board with PE, we’d still be on board too. You entirely missed this quote in the article. How do you explain that?

The author is cherrypicking here. See what Google actually said:

https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=162757#c...

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1qRqLKQjOnGgrM-UkMAb2...

Look at the slide notes on slide 6. They make a compelling technical and business argument against it; a reason the author acknowledges and dismisses because doesn't align with his thesis.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#49

Post by Touche »

frou_dh wrote: post #43
Touche wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? That was 7 years ago.

And yet it was only a few weeks ago that YouTube started serving HTML5 video by default on the desktop (yes I know there was a flakey cookie-based opt-in earlier). There and elsewhere I was/am STILL having to spoof my desktop user-agent to pretend to be a phone to get around "Flash is REQUIRED to view this content" roadblocks. Ideally Flash needs a bullet to the head, but I credit Apple with the best strike on it so…

You miss my point. You're saying we should forgive Apple of their current transgressions because they did something nice 7 years ago? Give me a break.

Re: Is Apple stifling progress in Web standards?

#50

Post by towelguy »

integraton wrote: post #38

Microsoft significantly stifled progress on the web for a decade. Now, after WebKit's progress wrestled away Microsoft's dominance and eventually forced Microsoft to spend years trying to catch up, Microsoft wants everyone to get out the pitchforks because Apple isn't supporting Microsoft's latest pet standard fast enough.

s/fast enough/at all/
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