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There exists a classical model of the photon after all

lightbluetouchpaper.org

41–50 of 86 posts

Re: There exists a classical model of the photon after all

#41
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the current status of Bohm's hidden variable theory? Does it stand up in light of the Bell test (I was under the impression that the Bell results suggest an arbitrary number of hidden variables would be necessary)?

I don't know and don't keep track. I lost interest after realizing that it can be made compatible with any possible observation. I'm personally a fan of the Everett interpretation. Also called the many worlds. Which is what you get if you assume that quantum mechanics applies to the observer. Then the act of observation throws the observer into a superposition of possible states where different things were observed.…

>good reason to believe that quantum mechanics does not describe humans

One simple idea is that the more energy and matter you shove into the wave function, the easier it is to collapse, so that at the macro level quantum effects are rendered impossible.

Re: There exists a classical model of the photon after all

#42
post #10
post #8

I hope this is as awesome as it sounds. It sums up everything I've been thinking about quantum physics, from "someone should look closer at Couders work" to "spooky action at a distance is BS" to "Quantum computers will never work - see spooky action".

> I hope this is as awesome as it sounds. If it's true, it would be even more awesome than it sounds. It would be the biggest breakthrough in physics in 100 years. I'll give you long odds against it turning out to be true, but I won't bet my entire life savings on it. [EDIT] I have now read the paper and I'm ready to bet my life savings that it's bogus. There's just nothing new here, just a hand-wavy argument that cl…

Yeah, I don't like when they say it matches XXX to first order... Does it match or not? OTOH it suggests that another model might, just like Couder suggested.

Re: There exists a classical model of the photon after all

#43
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the current status of Bohm's hidden variable theory? Does it stand up in light of the Bell test (I was under the impression that the Bell results suggest an arbitrary number of hidden variables would be necessary)?

I don't know and don't keep track. I lost interest after realizing that it can be made compatible with any possible observation. I'm personally a fan of the Everett interpretation. Also called the many worlds. Which is what you get if you assume that quantum mechanics applies to the observer. Then the act of observation throws the observer into a superposition of possible states where different things were observed.…

There's a problem with with many-worlds that I haven't seen convincingly refuted: when collapsing superposition of two states you might need to (or rather almost always) need the ratio of worlds with outcome A to worlds with outcome B to be irrational. So unless you create a continuum of new worlds each time it won't work.

Re: There exists a classical model of the photon after all

#45
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How long would I have to study physics to be able to understand everything in this sentence? Just start reading David J. Griffiths: Introduction to Electrodynamics . A very well written textbook. The problem might be, if you don't know vector calculus, you might not be able to read this book, so you need to learn some vector calculus, too. Then start reading Introduction to Quantum Mechanics by Griffiths, too. Best…

Wow, so nice to hear props for Griffiths' textbooks. I think he's by far the best physics textbook author.

I think Griffiths' E&M book is great. It's very enjoyable and makes a fine book to use before going on to Jackson (although more supplements are often needed to make it through that). I like Griffiths' writing and I liked the problems and examples he gives in this book.

However, I never liked Griffiths' QM book. The writing is OK (it's mostly in the same style as the E&M book, but to me it just seems like he tries too hard). Overall I didn't like his selection of which topics went to examples and which went to problems. I think Cohen-Tannoudji, et al., is the way to go for learning some QM. It's a bit more formal than Griffiths, but I think it makes far more sense and it has tons of good examples in the appendices.

But, to each his own.

Re: There exists a classical model of the photon after all

#46
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spooky action has been empirically demonstrated. https://arstechnica.com/science/2012/04/decision-to-entangle...

I call BS. If that's true, then Victor can not only send information across a distance, but back in time. Victor is changing the correlation of Alice and Bobs measurements after they have already been made. That's going to need serious verification for me to accept.

Or you could just, you know, check the published experimental results:

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/512281/chinese-physicis...

Physicists are increasingly convinced that time is an emergent property that arises due to low level quantum effects, principally entanglement [1].

The experiment in the Ars Technica article is the equivalent of the universe using lazy evaluation. It's really not so mysterious if you think outside the box of classical physics.

Regarding sending information back in time, from what I've read physicists are divided on the issue. Most agree that sending matter back in time is impossible, but information is still up for debate. In this particular experiment, however, any past observer who measured the information sent back in time would have collapsed the entangled quantum state and prevented the experiment from being conducted successfully. So being able to "successfully" send information back in time doesn't appear too useful if you can't read it.

[1] http://arxiv.org/abs/1310.4691

Re: There exists a classical model of the photon after all

#47
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spooky action has been empirically demonstrated. https://arstechnica.com/science/2012/04/decision-to-entangle...

I call BS. If that's true, then Victor can not only send information across a distance, but back in time. Victor is changing the correlation of Alice and Bobs measurements after they have already been made. That's going to need serious verification for me to accept.

There are 69 papers that cite that one, but I don't see any attempts to reproduce. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=1565984354572506461...

Also, do you have some explanation for violations of Bell's inequality that don't rely on spooky action?

Re: There exists a classical model of the photon after all

#48
post #44
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Einstein started with large amounts of empirical data and created models that explained them.

How is this different from that?

phkahler said "spooky action at a distance is BS" despite tons of evidence.

Re: There exists a classical model of the photon after all

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can take a bit of unpacking, but someone with some sort of college level physics and mathematics background can use Wikipedia to get a basic understanding of what they are talking about. They are basically saying that the quantum mechanical 'strangeness' of light can be explained with classical, deterministic, physics. It is not necessary to have a separation in which quantum mechanics predominates at one level an…

Pilot wave theory has been known for decades. So can someone explain how whatever they're talking about is different/new?

Their central claim is that they found a specific instance of quantum behavior where they can represent the whole model with only classical mechanics rather than falling back on quantum explanations like wavefunction collapse, etc. We think that describing quantum systems requires quantum explanations, so finding a counterexample could be interesting.

Re: There exists a classical model of the photon after all

#50
post #8

I hope this is as awesome as it sounds. It sums up everything I've been thinking about quantum physics, from "someone should look closer at Couders work" to "spooky action at a distance is BS" to "Quantum computers will never work - see spooky action".

It's quite exciting to see these sorts of papers. What fascinates me is that we have achieved so much in the "quantum age" of the past century using the models derived from a quantum mechanical approach to physics. That the bedrock [or lack of one] of that could be removed and provide a better, more consistent, approach seems so counter-intuitive. But then one recalls how long the Newtonian or Aristotelian approaches…

You may like the article, "Clearing Up Mysteries - The Original Goal" by E.T. Jaynes:

http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/cmystery.pdf

>While it is easy to understand and agree with this on the epistemological level, the answer that I and many others would give is that we expect a physical theory to do more than merely predict experimental results in the manner of an empirical equation; we want to come down to Einstein's ontological level and understand what is happening when an atom emits light, when a spin enters a Stern-Gerlach magnet, etc. The Copenhagen theory, having no answer to any question of the form: What is really happening when - - - ?", forbids us to ask such questions and tries to persuade us that it is philosophically naive to want to know what is happening. But I do want to know, and I do not think this is naive; and so for me QM is not a physical theory at all, only an empty mathematical shell in which a future theory may, perhaps, be built.

...and maybe chapter 10 of his book, "Probability Theory: The Logic of Science".

>We are fortunate that the principles of Newtonian mechanics could be developed and verified to great accuracy by studying astronomical phenomena, where friction and turbulence do not complicate what we see. But suppose the Earth were, like Venus, enclosed perpetually in thick clouds. The very existence of an external universe would be unknown for a long time, and to develop the laws of mechanics we would be dependent on the observations we could make locally.

>Since tossing of small objects is nearly the first activity of every child, it would be observed very early that they do not always fall with the same side up, and that all one’s efforts to control the outcome are in vain. The natural hypothesis would be that it is the volition of the object tossed, not the volition of the tosser, that determines the outcome; indeed, that is the hypothesis that small children make when questioned about this. Then it would be a major discovery, once coins had been fabricated, that they tend to show both sides about equally often; and the equality appears to get better as the number of tosses increases. The equality of heads and tails would be seen as a fundamental law of physics; symmetric objects have a symmetric volition in falling.

>With this beginning, we could develop the mathematical theory of object tossing, discovering the binomial distribution, the absence of time correlations, the limit theorems, the combinatorial frequency laws for tossing of several coins at once, the extension to more complicated symmetric objects like dice, etc. All the experimental confirmations of the theory would consist of more and more tossing experiments, measuring the frequencies in more and more elaborate scenarios. From such experiments, nothing would ever be found that called into question the existence of that volition of the object tossed; they only enable one to confirm that volition and measure it more and more accurately...

http://www.med.mcgill.ca/epidemiology/hanley/bios601/Gaussia...

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