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World's Top Arms Exporters Visualized

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Re: World's Top Arms Exporters Visualized

#41

Post by bottled_poe »

jdfellow wrote: post #37

With as popular as Glock is, you'd think Austria would be bigger than a basically insignificant sliver. I suppose if it was scaled by units sold instead of dollar values that may swing it towards inexpensive small arms like Glock pistols. Actually, that may be why USA and Russia are so enormous as exporters: they make expensive heavy arms like tanks, artillery, warplanes, ships, machine guns, bombs, while lots of pla…

> All of my arms are made in Russia or USA, if that means anything.

As an Australian, I found this statement difficult to parse. The idea of owning a gun is so foreign to me, let alone multiple.

Re: World's Top Arms Exporters Visualized

#42

Post by fit2rule »

bottled_poe wrote: post #41
jdfellow wrote: post #37

With as popular as Glock is, you'd think Austria would be bigger than a basically insignificant sliver. I suppose if it was scaled by units sold instead of dollar values that may swing it towards inexpensive small arms like Glock pistols. Actually, that may be why USA and Russia are so enormous as exporters: they make expensive heavy arms like tanks, artillery, warplanes, ships, machine guns, bombs, while lots of pla…

> All of my arms are made in Russia or USA, if that means anything. As an Australian, I found this statement difficult to parse. The idea of owning a gun is so foreign to me, let alone multiple.

As an Australian, I remember when guns were not something to be feared, but rather used if you need to .. my grandmothers 410 was used to dispatch snakes (dangerous) and rabbits (vermin) on a regular basis, and I remember fondly the bush trips with my uncles and cousins to eradicate invasive swine in the region.

Fortunately, Australia is yet to be invaded (unless you count our own ancestors heinous actions against the native owners of the land), or you would perhaps have a different perspective on just how foreign gun ownership can impact your life .. the time may well come, in our lifetimes or shortly thereafter, when Australians are even more subservient to a foreign power than they currently are ..

Re: World's Top Arms Exporters Visualized

#43

Post by fit2rule »

throwaway344 wrote: post #21
myth_drannon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one of the reasons for the civil war in Ukraine, an attempt(successful) to dismantle the left-over military industrial complex in Eastern Ukraine that was inherited from Soviet Union (competes with US's military industrial complex). They didn't want to do it peacefully(The EU-Ukraine association pact required shutting down these factories) , Yanukovich refused(his support base came from the East) now all of it…

In what world is the democratically elected government of Mr. Poroshenko, a "US-installed junta"?

In the same world where the US' own military junta was installed (Bush) with ease, under the cover of 'democracy'.

Re: World's Top Arms Exporters Visualized

#44

Post by geoka9 »

xnull6guest wrote: post #39
throwaway344 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what world is the democratically elected government of Mr. Poroshenko, a "US-installed junta"?

In the world where the February 21st deal to keep Yanukovych in power until end of term [1] was reneged on with support by Voice of America and funding and training to Euromaiden groups from the West, prior US knowledge of the ouster and discussions about a suitable replacement [2], and a world where US policy makers suggest covert arming of the Ukraine [3]. It's also important to keep the broader context - that the…

> the February 21st deal to keep Yanukovych in power... was reneged

It wasn't. The annexation of Crimea started before the deal was signed (Feb. 20) and Yanukovich decided to close shop and flee soon afterwards[1].

> and a world where US policy makers suggest covert arming of the Ukraine

With Ukraine undergoing a not-so-covert invasion, and Russian leadership having already laid a claim to half of Ukraine, no less[2], defensive weapons to help stop the aggression are hardly too much to ask.

> and a near NATO deal with the Ukraine caused the original crisis

European association agreement is hardly a "near NATO deal" and Ukraine had laws that precluded it from becoming a NATO member - so that wasn't even in the plans. The people took to the streets when Yanukovich abruptly reneged on his promise to sign the association agreement after visiting Moscow.

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/world/europe/ukraine-leade...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya

Re: World's Top Arms Exporters Visualized

#45

Post by xnull2guest »

geoka9 wrote: post #44
xnull6guest wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the world where the February 21st deal to keep Yanukovych in power until end of term [1] was reneged on with support by Voice of America and funding and training to Euromaiden groups from the West, prior US knowledge of the ouster and discussions about a suitable replacement [2], and a world where US policy makers suggest covert arming of the Ukraine [3]. It's also important to keep the broader context - that the…

> the February 21st deal to keep Yanukovych in power... was reneged It wasn't. The annexation of Crimea started before the deal was signed (Feb. 20) and Yanukovich decided to close shop and flee soon afterwards[1]. > and a world where US policy makers suggest covert arming of the Ukraine With Ukraine undergoing a not-so-covert invasion, and Russian leadership having already laid a claim to half of Ukraine, no less[2]…

AFAICT we don't disagree on any points. Regarding support for Yunukovych, the deal was signed and not followed up on. It's true his authority was fading fast - these things are not mutually exclusive. The Feb 21 deal was struck to resolve the standoff discussed in your linked NYT article - can you point to where it says that annexation began before Feb 21st (the earliest I can find it mention is March)?

Similarly with covert armaments - the discussion of 'too much to ask' or 'right or wrong' is orthagonal to whether the West takes covert action in the Baltic to achieve policy objectives. My claim is merely that it is done - not that it is wrong.

And similarly wrt the association agreement - it has to do with the context of EU and NATO encroachment and Western action in the Baltic (I would have to admit that it was EU membership, not NATO, in this case).

The grandparent may have anti-European or -NATO sentiments. I don't. But I will defend the idea that the West, having heavily polled Ukraine and called for its own elections, and having discussed options for replacing the leadership, and training and funding groups in the Ukraine, and having controlled the election process in Kiev (calling afoul when Russia performed the same in the Crimea) absolutely is not above influencing its own support. Again I am not calling this bad.

Re: World's Top Arms Exporters Visualized

#46

Post by trhway »

throwaway344 wrote: post #21
myth_drannon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one of the reasons for the civil war in Ukraine, an attempt(successful) to dismantle the left-over military industrial complex in Eastern Ukraine that was inherited from Soviet Union (competes with US's military industrial complex). They didn't want to do it peacefully(The EU-Ukraine association pact required shutting down these factories) , Yanukovich refused(his support base came from the East) now all of it…

In what world is the democratically elected government of Mr. Poroshenko, a "US-installed junta"?

>democratically elected government of Mr. Poroshenko

interesting how democratically elected Poroshenko is ok while democratically voted separation of Crimea isn't. Democracy is supposed to be a principle not a substitute for the "i like the outcome" label :)

Re: World's Top Arms Exporters Visualized

#47

Post by trhway »

curiouslurker wrote: post #26
jostmey wrote: post #18

Wow. I always knew the US exported arms, so I kind of expected that we were the worst offenders. But whoa! Look at Russia. The country must be depending on weapon exports to keep their economy going, which is simply not diversified enough to weather through the down times.

I wonder how much of this is AK-47s. It is arguably the most successful arm.

>It is arguably the most successful arm.

depends on the definition of "success" :) I'd say that no number of AKs would have protected the Assad regime the way the S-300/400 has done so far. The Su-27 platform has been kind of AK of multi-purpose fighter planes.

Re: World's Top Arms Exporters Visualized

#48

Post by trhway »

Xixi wrote: post #34
brandonmenc wrote: post #2

Germany's largest importer is Israel. What an interesting world.

It's not necessarily surprising as Germany gives huge discounts on these equipments to Israel. I don't have figures for all deals, but it seems usual for German taxpayers to pay for about a third of the costs. Example: > In 2006, the deal for 2 Dolphin AIP boats was finalized at a total of $1.27 billion, with the German government picking up 1/3 of the cost. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/germany-may-sell-2-more…

>with the German government picking up 1/3 of the cost.

probably cheaper than having these people unemployed.

Re: World's Top Arms Exporters Visualized

#49

Post by ZenoArrow »

kelvinn wrote: post #14

This was an interesting way to visualise the arms database. Some patterns are interesting: What appears to be almost 50% of Russia's exports go to India, while what appears to be almost 90% of China's exports go to the countries surrounding India (Pakistan, Bangladesh, and a Myanmar).

Yeah, what's up with that? I know India and Pakistan aren't exactly best friends (Kashmir and all that), but they're not at full scale war with each other are they? Why the need for all the arms? India's arms imports in particular are shockingly high, especially for a country with so much need for investment in infrastructure and poverty alleviation.

No idea where Bangladesh and Myanmar stand in relation to all this.

Re: World's Top Arms Exporters Visualized

#50

Post by plinkplonk »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #49
kelvinn wrote: post #14

This was an interesting way to visualise the arms database. Some patterns are interesting: What appears to be almost 50% of Russia's exports go to India, while what appears to be almost 90% of China's exports go to the countries surrounding India (Pakistan, Bangladesh, and a Myanmar).

Yeah, what's up with that? I know India and Pakistan aren't exactly best friends (Kashmir and all that), but they're not at full scale war with each other are they? Why the need for all the arms? India's arms imports in particular are shockingly high, especially for a country with so much need for investment in infrastructure and poverty alleviation. No idea where Bangladesh and Myanmar stand in relation to all this.

"India's arms imports in particular are shockingly high"

If you are a country with China for a neighbour, and have experience of having already fought (and lost) a war with China, I bet you would import a lot of arms. India is (among other things) importing arms to defend against China, not Pakistan.

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